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Where are your models for this kind of ministry?
My heroes for urban community development are Ezra, Esther, and Nehemiah. Esther moved inside the system, ran for Miss Persia, and won. She married the king, accessed power, and changed the law. Somebody has to move off the map of the godly into the godless structure and change the law. Esther teaches us that it's not enough just to repent for sin. It's systemic, and the law has to change. We're into housing because justice is not being done. If you want justice, you have to change the law.

Nehemiah, on the other hand, got the government grant and started the biblical model-cities plan. He got everybody in the neighborhood to build the wall. Urban ministry does not start with just the saved; it starts with everybody.

When Nehemiah got the wall built, he discovered that he had an urban jungle; only the priests lived there. So Nehemiah went to the suburbs and said, "Choose one out of ten to come and live in the city." Nehemiah 11:2 says, "And the people blessed all those who were willing to live in Jerusalem." Then Ezra came and rebuilt the temple with his friend Zerubbabel.

I tell pastors, "You have not preached tithing until you have preached the tithing of your people, of 10 percent going into urban neighborhoods where the church is." If you have more than that, you'll intimidate the natives and gentrify the neighborhood. Tithe your people, and use your assets to buy property next to every playground and grammar school in your community so you can stash your people there to create positive webs of influence in the community.

Is there a typical profile of people who do ministry well in the city?
People have to be secure in their identity. Another secret is the ability to see that you don't build on problems to be solved; you build on islands of strength that are already there—the ability to see the capacities of what you've got and not lament what you don't have. A support group and family affirmation are critical.

I recommend to new urban pastors what I did in my own ministry: visit every other church in the community, meet the pastors, and say, "I've been driving by but never stopped to thank you for serving the neighborhood. Tell me the most important lesson you've learned about being a minister in this community" or "How has this community changed in your lifetime?" I got wonderful openness because I wasn't threatening anybody.

What do you think of the current interest within evangelicalism in racial reconciliation?
Better late than never. Back in the 1960s, when my commitment to racial reconciliation was formed, they weren't there. Racial reconciliation has been part of our family for a long time. My wife once had a black roommate at Moody Bible Institute, which was very unusual at the time. We adopted a black kid-not that we wanted to, but my oldest kid kept bringing him home. We finally adopted him after feeding him for six months. And we've spent our life as a family incorporating his roots. And now we have a beautiful black grandchild. Our way of working at racial reconciliation has been quiet; I haven't marched in a lot of parades.

The reality is, you can't talk reconciliation and continue to live in all-white communities, spend your money in white shopping malls, and take your vacations in white locations. If you're serious, ultimately you broaden your commitments, including the church.

What are your thoughts on welfare reform?
We have to have welfare reform. The welfare system was designed almost punitively. In 1968 when I coordinated Chicago's Reach-Out program for 30,000 kids as part of President Johnson's Great Society program, I saw how the system worked. When we'd interview the kids, they would ask: "Will my check be deducted from my mother's check?" The answer was yes. The kids would say, "I can't afford to work, because my mother is just going to lose benefits." That's criminal. The kids couldn't afford to get a paper route, because every dollar they made was going to be deducted from their mom's check, because Americans are afraid that poor people are getting rich with their tax dollars.

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March 3 1997, Vol. 41, No. 3