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I was delighted by how the media really did pick up this story in a way that I had not seen before. It's the first time in the last 20 years that I can think of that kind of story being so heavily covered in the media.

Are you hopeful that Exodus will be taken more seriously by the gay-rights movement?

I'm very excited about the next generation of leaders in Exodus. They do things differently. The founding generation tended to be isolated. It was more the mindset that we came out of the gay community and now we're going to stay away—if you interact with them, they may pull you back in. The young leaders in Exodus love dialogue, and they're not afraid to go out for coffee with any gay activist who calls.

I think that's a more biblical pattern. I think that's the example that Jesus gave. He went out into society, and he was not afraid to go into what we would think of as unpleasant or uncomfortable situations and be himself and shed light in darkness.

I'm noticing now that the major gay media no longer waste even one sentence explaining what Exodus is. They assume that their millions of readers know exactly what Exodus is or what ex-gay is. We always used to have quote marks around ex-gay, and a lot of times now they don't even bother with that. It's common knowledge in the gay community that we exist. So we've had actually more interaction with the gay press. Some of my favorite interviews are with the gay media, because I love to blow their stereotypes of what ex-gay Christians are like. I think that they are shocked at how friendly I am. I treat them with respect, I give them abundant time.

I don't consider myself an evangelist, but I would say that the best evangelistic conversations I've ever had in my life have been with gay and lesbian reporters. They are pumping me for information about my ministry, and that goes right into my own testimony. I give them a brief, seeker-friendly perspective on my worldview. The bigger perspective is that God created me and he wants a personal relationship with me. He loves me. That's what motivates me to come out of homosexuality, because I want to live a life that's going to please him. And I just give them a little bit of the gospel.

I've had gay reporters say, "Nobody has ever told me this before. I have never had anyone explain it to me this clearly before." And that to me is a real victory.

A friend recently talked about a sociologist who does a pop quiz, asking ex-gays in an audience whether their arousal patterns or fantasy lives have changed. Apparently the answer is almost invariably no. Does this sound overly tidy?

I think sometimes we have overstated our defense. We know behind closed doors that change is possible, but change is rarely complete. I know many men who are totally transformed compared to 20 years ago, but that doesn't mean that they never have a thought or a memory or a temptation or a struggle. It means that the struggle has diminished significantly. That doesn't mean they haven't changed; it just means that for all of us, redemption is still incomplete. We're all still in process as believers. And we may never cross that finish line of total victory until we see Christ face to face. And that's true for any Christian.

Sometimes in Exodus we have been too silent about our ongoing struggles. As soon as we admit in the face of gay activists that we have any kind of residual struggles, they say, "Aha! See, you haven't changed, you're just a bunch of phonies and if you would really be honest with us, you'd admit that you're just the same person you always were but you're faking it."

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January 7 2002, Vol. 46, No. 1