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When there are fundamental changes in the church, there have to be fundamental changes in the educational institutions preparing leadership for that church. What's going on there?

Well, we're trying. I think [the change hasn't taken off yet,] largely because we are still looking to the agenda of previous decades. It was very important, especially for evangelicals, to make their mark in terms of the scholarly world and the academy.

We don't want to sacrifice that. We want better scholarship for the future. But at the same time, the agenda has changed in that we have to ask the crucial question: How can we prepare church leaders to be effective in mission within North America?

When I emerged from seminary 40 years ago, the main point was really to look after the flock and to watch the shop. It was a pastoral call. The world in which I was trained to minister in 40 years ago no longer exists.

I think what some of the leaders of Gen X churches are doing is really retaining or winning back a generation of churched or previously churched young kids. What I am more concerned about is the more radical challenge of the never churched.

We don't want to jettison one model for the other. As a pastor, it's my responsibility before God to ensure there's effective leadership in each of the areas [laid out in] Ephesians 4. We need the apostolic, we need the pastoral, and we need the evangelistic. We need the teaching.

So what must churches do?

A good man said many years ago, pagans out of a secular world don't come ready-laundered.

You do need a strong, disciplined core. One of our problems is we have so many church members who are not disciplined. You need a core of people that are serious about living out the life of Christ, just as the Methodist class system in the 18th century.

When we invite others to join us, it is an invitation to join us on our journey because discipleship is a lifelong learning experience. There should be a reciprocal dynamic at work. As we get to know those who are coming out of a dysfunctional, destructive lifestyle, it should be with the sensitivity to the leading of the Spirit, but not the dumping of our own moral agenda to address those issues.

So we ourselves are being challenged. And I sometimes ask the students at Fuller this question: When Peter went into the home of Cornelius, the centurion, who was converted? Both of them came out of that meeting changed.

Copyright © 2003 Christianity Today. Click for reprint information.

Visit DickStaub.com for audio and video of his radio program (4-7 p.m. PST), media reviews, and news on "where belief meets real life."

Earlier Dick Staub Interviews include:

Peter Jenkins Finds Jesus While Walking America | The author of A Walk Across America talks about why angels smiled down at him at a revival in Mobile, Alabama. (Jan. 7, 2002)

R.C. Sproul's Testimony | The theologian and author of Five Things Every Christian Needs to Grow talks about how he met Jesus and why playing the violin is like reading the Bible. (Dec. 31, 2002)

Calvin Miller on a Southern Baptist's View of Advent | The author of The Christ of Christmas celebrates the season around the one great miracle (Dec. 17, 2002)

Phillip Johnson | Asking the right questions is at the heart of the evolution debate. (Dec. 3, 2002)

Connie Neal | The author of The Gospel According to Harry Potter talks about leading a friend to Christ through the wizard hero. (Nov. 19, 2002)

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January (Web-only) 2003, Vol. 47