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Home > 2007 > May (Web-only)Christianity Today, May (Web-only), 2007  |   |  
"Is Christianity Good for the World?"
Part 4 of the ongoing debate between Christopher Hitchens and Douglas Wilson.




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To your needlessly convoluted subsequent question: Atheists are by no means "coy" on the question of evil or on the possibility of non-supernatural derivation of ethics. We are simply reluctant to say that, if religious faith falls—as we believe it must and to some extent already has—then the undergirding of decency falls also. And we do not fail to notice that a corollary is in play: The manner in which religion makes people behave worse than they might otherwise have done. Take a look at today's paper if you do not believe me: See what the parties of God are doing in Iraq. Or notice the sordid yet pious tradesmanship of Ralph Reed, Jack Abramoff, and the late Jerry Falwell. The latter's bedside is the one at which you should be asking your question—do you dare to say that a follower of Albert Einstein or Bertrand Russell would be gloating in the same way at their last hour? In either case—an atheist boaster and braggart or a hypocritical religious one—I trust that both of us would know enough to be quite "judgmental." I would differ from you only in not requiring any supernatural sanction or in claiming to be smug enough to possess such a power.

I am sorry to see that you sarcastically refer to Thomas Jefferson as "my" beloved. Do you not respect him also? And why can you not summon enough charity to believe that a non-believer can give blood, say, for no return, out of the sheer satisfaction of doing a service that involves only a benefit and no loss? According to you, my doing this is pointless unless I accept the incredible idea that, after hundreds of thousands of years of human life and suffering, God chose a moment a few thousand years ago to finally mount an intervention. You will have to accept sooner or later that a good person can be born who cannot force his mind to believe such a fantastic thing. At that point, you will see that your strenuous conditions are surplus to requirements.

In closing, I reply to your clumsy observation about my motor vehicle by citing Heine, who said:

In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind old men as guides.

The argument that you have been making was over long before either of us was born. There is no need for revelation to enforce morality, and the idea that good conduct needs a heavenly reward, or that bad conduct merits a hellish punishment, is a degradation of our right and duty to choose for ourselves.

* * *


From: Douglas Wilson
To: Christopher Hitchens
Part 4

You refer to the faithful "creating a mystery where none exists." May I get you to agree that the question "Why is there something here rather than nothing at all?" does not fall into that category? If you and I were standing on a little thought-experiment balcony watching either the moment when the cosmic boilers blew, giving us the Big Bang, or watching the first glorious creational response to God's fiat lux, can we agree that at that moment Ockham's razor would be of absolutely no use to either of us?

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Displaying 1 - 3 of 192 comments.See all comments
Lee   Posted: May 28, 2007 4:45 PM
Hasty, all I know about your objection is that you don't like my explanation. You claim it is a non sequitur, but I thought I explained it. I'll try again: 1. We agree that humility is a sign of a high character; 2. Therefore, we would expect to see that character trait in the creator of all morality;' and 3. It is unreasonable to expect God to be less than his creation, so find me another religion that features an absolute creator who displays this particular character trait. You immediately caracatured this by speaking of a god who abases Himself before his own creation -- a neurotic god -- without explaining how a neurotic god could be the source of all goodness. Then I showed how Islam is not up to the task of showing a humble god, and your response is, 1. Nonsense, and 2. What about Hinduism? Hinduism is not monotheistic. Its gods are inhabitants of a higher continuum, perhaps, but they did not create that continuum, ergo they are mere creatures themselves.

Hasty Toweling   Posted: May 28, 2007 1:48 AM
Lee, sorry to wait so long to get back. The see-saw metaphor was a bad one, because it assumed that Christianity and Islam were the only 2 possibilities. A better way to phrase it would have been to say that the see-saw must fall to the Christianity side *before I will even consider it*. Here's the deal: Lee, you and your co-religionists claim to have a special understanding of the universe. I know you wouldn't phrase it like that, but that's what it is. My position is this: *no you don't*. When pressed why I should believe your particular "special understanding", as opposed to the "special understanding" of Scientologists and the others that contradict yours, what I get is "my version is humbler". Lee, this is a ludicrous non sequitur by any reasonable standard. I'm not trying to be mean, but Lee, you don't have any special understanding that Hindus don't have. Quite simply, you are kidding me and yourself, and I can't take this seriously anymore.

Lee   Posted: May 25, 2007 9:59 PM
Duff, well, once again, *somebody* isn't listening. I don't think I have spent *most* of my time claiming, as you say, that my ethics derive from something divine (thought that is what I believe). I have, rather, spent *most* of my time asking you why you think ethics derived from the premises of atheism carry any authority since they are *not* derived from something divine? Oh well, Hitchens has missed this point for five posts now, so you are in excellent company. But it's like pulling hippo teeth to get an answer. I'll just stop with that, because I don't think the conversation can progress until you, or someone, explains it. I'd rather hear an answer to that, than be sidetracked into some other area of contention (such as creationism).

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