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Dr. Henry: You have spoken of the comparative ease with which converts are now being made and you have said this happens in many religions today. How do you discriminate the presence of the Holy Spirit in this general religious moving? What are the criteria of the presence of the Holy Spirit?

Dr. Graham: I think there is a hunger of the soul and an inquiring of the mind after some philosophy, some ideology, or some religion that will satisfy. The talk of scientists about annihilation of the human race is penetrating the thinking of the world. Many people are beginning to reflect on the possibility of racial suicide and they wonder, "What have I to hold on to? What do we have that can save us?" I think that's one element. But I also feel that beyond that is the sovereign presence of the Holy Spirit in penetrating power that perhaps is using this religious inquiry in allowing an acceptance of the Gospel all over the world, perhaps in such scale as we have not seen before in history.

Dr. Ockenga: Could you elaborate on that point?

Dr. Graham: I think that we are seeing on the one hand this tremendous spiritual emphasis and religious interest, and on the other hand materialism is gaining in many different ways. When God does great work, powers of evil also rise.

Dr. Lamont: The Bible says wickedness shall grow worse and worse. But at the same time, is it not possible that the church is going to grow better and better? Don't you think that at the same time it's possible for the saints to become more sanctified?

Dr. Graham: I am not sure that I would say that in America saints are more sanctified. I'm not so sure but what they are less sanctified. I think that television, for example, is having a detrimental effect on Christians. I think that they are no longer sensitive to sin. I think that television has brought the night club into the home, along with violence and sex—things that Christians looked upon 10 years ago with abhorrence. They have gradually become desensitized, and I can cite case after case in which Christians now watch television without feeling any twinge of conscience.

Dr. Henry: Do you mean that the secular thrust has penetrated more deeply in America than the spiritual thrust?

Dr. Graham: The spiritual thrust, it seems to me, has been almost numerical. There is this great influx into the churches and this great interest, but so much of it is superficial.

Dr. Henry: What would you say is the greatest need of the Church today?

Dr. Graham: I believe that the thing that we are missing today is not organization, it is not facilities, and it is not communication. The great need in the world today is for Spirit-filled men who really produce the fruit of the Spirit. I had a Hindu student say to me in Madras, "I would become a Christian if I could see one." And when he said that to me he was looking at me. That was one of the greatest sermons ever preached to me.

Dr. Lamont: Last year, the growth in American church membership failed to keep up with the population increase. What is your comment?

Dr. Graham: The increase in population over the increase in church membership was small. In my opinion, there is no indication of a trend here. I don't think there should be any discouragement over this at all.

Dr. Ockenga: As population increases and Christianity vies for the additional people with other major religions, we'll probably have fewer Christians proportionately. How do you reconcile this with your viewpoint of a greater hunger for spiritual things?

Dr. Graham: Well, the job of the Christian Church in the proclamation of the Gospel is not necessarily to win the world, but to confront the world with the Gospel of Christ and to give the world an opportunity to receive or reject him.

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October (Web-only) 2008, Vol. 52