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With federal judges in two highly conservative states striking down "defense of marriage" laws as unconstitutional this January, more church-state experts are advising same-sex marriage opponents that the marriage battleground should shift ...

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scott roney

March 13, 2014  2:13am

We live in the United States, that place with the founding documents that proclaims that "all men are created equal," and "no state shall make or enforce any law which shall...deny to any person the equal protection of the laws." For a crowd that loves to bandy about their pocket Constitutions, funny how those founding principles get glossed over in the name of religious freedom. Well, it's against my religion ("Reality-ism") that Republicans get the right to vote. But alas, they still get to vote, because "freedom of religion" doesn't mean what they think it means. The same people that have spent pretty much forever demonizing and delegitimizing homosexuality are now crying because it's their turn to face a smidgeon of the hostility, in a country where two-thirds of its citizens still do not live in states with marriage equality? The problem for the whiners isn't that they can't wave their bigotry in public without repercussions. It's that they're a rapidly shrinking minority.

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Clyde Baker

February 28, 2014  6:23pm

The saddest part of this whole effort for a rear-guard so-called 'Christian' defense of traditional marriage by institutionalizing discrimination in the name of protecting faith is the harm Christians are doing to themselves. Christ calls us to be a light on a hill instead we plant another form of the burning cross every place we can. We are supposed to gird ourselves in the armor of faith instead we want the laws to swaddle us in our prejudice. Like the emperor's new clothes, we are cloaked in such outrageous misplaced zeal that we will deservedly suffer the shame of it as time goes by.

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audrey ruth

February 20, 2014  1:05am

Jeff, Obama condemned Bush roundly throughout his 2008 campaign, but since he's been in office he hasn't done any better, only worse - he's like Bush on steroids. The only campaign promise he's kept is that he would "fundamentally transform America". I wondered then why it was that people couldn't seem to really hear him. And why Americans would sit idly by when Pelosi said, "Let's pass the bill, THEN read it" - there should have been protests in the streets! None of this makes any sense, and our rapidly escalating national debt ($17 TRILLION and growing every day) is fast approaching danger point. As for Russia: How ironic it is that a God-less communist society would take a Biblical stand on marriage, while a nation who used to acknowledge God has moved so very, very far in the opposite direction.

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Jeff Perry

February 15, 2014  11:20pm

To H. D. Schmidt...Well 1st of all, in 2008 the previous administration gave the current administration 2 choices. Go bankrupt or print money. Billionaires were not going to give the millions without jobs a paycheck..... 2nd Look at who is hosting the Olympics. Are they Socialist/Communist? ...or similar? How do they view Gay Marriage? Are there Gay rights there? How did Russia "get out of debt" and back on track to become a Superpower?

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Jeff Perry

February 15, 2014  4:24pm

Marriage is a Contract between 2 people and the Government. Even Christians have to go to a Lawyer/Court to get divorced. Why are Churches allowing the Government to control what happens in Churches? The Ceremony is a Holy Union and has nothing to do with the Government, however, that piece of paper/contract that they sign is Governed by the State or Federal entity. Why not have a Holy Union, as intended by God, in the Church, and sign the contract on another day or out of the Church? Any Religious initiations, Unions, Ceremonies should be protected under the Freedom of Religion act. Keep any legal Contracts/documents out of the Church. Less documents, less control. Jeff

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H. D. Schmidt

February 07, 2014  10:13am

If the USA had never ever allowed Socialism/Communism to take complete control of our economic system I am absolutely convinced that we would not now be embattled over this evil of same sex marriage! I challenge anybody that would challenge my conclusion!

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audrey ruth

February 04, 2014  7:06am

Nowhere in the entire Bible does God condemn any man because of the color of his skin. Instead, He says: "For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7 This scripture in the NT is affirmation: "From one man he made all the nations, And has made of one blood all nations of men to dwell on all the face of the earth." Acts 17:31 // This is a completely DIFFERENT issue than God's moral law, which is for all time as evidenced throughout the entire NT. Upholding God's definition of marriage, which has been the standard for centuries in all major civilizations and religions (even in atheist communist nations), cannot be accurately defined as "maltreatment" or "prejudice". Defying God's Word by justifying perversion under the false term "marriage" is to call good what He calls evil, which is extremely offensive in His sight (Isaiah 5:20). Christ Jesus Himself affirms His definition of marriage in Matthew 19.

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audrey ruth

February 02, 2014  8:06am

KPastor Larry Hake, you are absolutely correct when you say that the Supreme Court defined Humanism (deification of man) as a religion years ago - indeed, the authors of the original Humanist Manifesto defined humanism as a religion. But, sadly, anti-"discrimination" law CAN and DOES trump Christians' religious belief, as demonstrated by extremist judges' rulings in recent months requiring small business owners to violate their conscience re: the title issue here, or else be severely fined, even to the point of losing their businesses. This is a clear violation of the First Amendment, and Americans should be speaking out about this. Silence will only further the stripping away of everything which has made this nation truly great, and will only lead this nation into utter destruction. Of whom much is given, much is required.

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audrey ruth

January 29, 2014  10:01pm

As long as 'liberals' trumpet their political beliefs from church pulpits week after week, and some 'liberal' political leaders call themselves 'reverends' (although they do not pastor churches), there will never be separation of church and state. Those who squawk about it are hypocritical, because they only want to shut up 'conservatives', not 'liberals'.

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James Cowles

January 28, 2014  7:34am

@ Kpastor Larry Hake ... Maybe their should actually be separation of church and state. Would n't that be nice?" Yes it would be VERY nice. But that separation would never happen is conservative Christians got their way & turned EVERYthing & EVERY issue into a matter of religion, as in Saudi Arabia & Iran.

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James Cowles

January 28, 2014  7:31am

@ Darrell Hart ... "The "votes" worked in Blue States because they stirred up hatred against Mormons, Catholics and others." So people who voted in favor of gay marriage hate Catholics & Mormons. Evidence?

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Darrell Hart

January 28, 2014  5:49am

The slavery argument is an appeal to hatred. The "votes" worked in Blue States because they stirred up hatred against Mormons, Catholics and others.

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KPASTOR LARRY HAKE

January 27, 2014  10:53pm

Anti-discrimination law can never trump religious belief. That is an oxymoron. It is always one religion against another. The Supreme Court defined Humanism as a religion years ago. What I would like to see discussed is the marriage license itself. The Nuns will likely be granted a waver which asked them to sign off on certain birth control measures. They said signing away their right was being complicit. Isn't signing such a license also being complicit? Maybe their should actually be separation of church and state. Would n't that be nice?

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James Cowles

January 27, 2014  9:14am

@ Darrell Hart ... It started with the true 1%, a few activist judges, not with "we the people." Without that undemocratic beginning, it never would've picked up steam. 1% of the world's population is 60 million people, and I doubt there have been that many votes on these referenda ... " The reason the movement in the US "picked up steam" was because people VOTED FOR IT in referenda / plebescites. BTW if you want to argue for the influence of money, you should also consider the case of Prop 8, where the "anti" campaign was finances in large measure by the deep pockets Mormon Church. There are similar organizations with deep pockets -- think "Catholic Church" -- opposed to gay rights. Don't those count? The fact that the US is in the minority vis a vis gay rights only proves that, as a nation, we are ahead of the curve. Most countries used to practice slavery. Does that mean slavery was good?

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Darrell Hart

January 26, 2014  8:53pm

@James. I think you know the history of the movement better than that. It started with the true 1%, a few activist judges, not with "we the people." Without that undemocratic beginning, it never would've picked up steam. 1% of the world's population is 60 million people, and I doubt there have been that many votes on these referenda, winning only in the bluest of blue states. In any event, it's not a Christian vs. others issue, it's the urban West vs. the rest of the world. Christians have been on the forefront of the opposition to the redefinition of marriage mostly because we know the consequences and are more motivated to avoid them. The whole thrust of the article, if we can try hard to stay on topic, is religious freedom, and these referenda of yours run roughshod on freedom, big time

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James Cowles

January 26, 2014  9:15am

@ Linda Fiatoa ... "the problem is, that this would lead to telling people what to believe, how to worship, and ultimately, the end of the First Amendment right to freedom of religion." Exactly ... and that is the kind of vision that is cherished & hankered after by many conservatives, even as they wave the Flag & sing the National Anthem at the top of their voice. Multitudes of conservative evangelical / Reformed Christians envy conditions in Saudi Arabia & Iran. They think such countries have the right idea & only got the religion part wrong.

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James Cowles

January 26, 2014  9:10am

@ Darrell Hart ... "why do the 1% (Western urban elites) get to impose their new definition of marriage on the rest of the world?" Pure fiction. States, including my own state of WA, have voted in referenda whether to allow gay marriage & have voted yes by substantial majorities. The people voting "Yes" were not 1-percenters or "urban elites", whatever the latter term might mean. Also ... we don't vote on literally EVERYthing because certain principles are too important to vote on. Would you seriously propose that people be allowed to vote to have slavery & to prohibit the practice of, say, Catholicism? The Constitution, which the people ratified (see the Preamble), lays down certain principles ("due process", "equal protection", "free exercise" of religion, etc.) that are non-negotiable.

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Wit D

January 26, 2014  8:05am

Linda; you may not realize; many pastors don't preach against same sex marriage precisely because the govt pass laws legalizing it. They are in fear of loosing their comfort zone; And so are you.Many have acquiesce and accept "sin "as a standard. Do remember the "Duck" issue, where were their 1st amendment rights,to speak against "sin" without fear of loosing their job? Do you know how many"activist" will lobby to tell pastors not to preach, homosexuality, hell, feminism, immorality etc.. all currently happening. The problem was, is and will always be a "Church Compromised"; one more concern with maintaining their comfort and prestige. Less about proclaiming the FULL Gospel of Jesus Christ. IMHO a purging is necessary and Isaiah 3 will re-occur because most of the churches have lost it's effectiveness as a witness for Christ, So anything goes. The demise always start from within... I don't care if men lie with men etc.. but don't call it marriage/family; these are TRADE MARK issues...

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Darrell Hart

January 26, 2014  5:47am

No one has answered the question: why do the 1% (Western urban elites) get to impose their new definition of marriage on the rest of the world?

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Linda Fiatoa

January 25, 2014  10:47pm

wit d. the problem is, that this would lead to telling people what to believe, how to worship, and ultimately, the end of the First Amendment right to freedom of religion.

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