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The proposed anti-homosexuality legislation in Uganda has created tension between American Christians who have condemned the legislation and Ugandan Christians who don't want to see homosexuality become an acceptable practice.

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Displaying 1–125 of 125 comments

Dan

December 28, 2009  3:23pm

@DH: Thanks for the documentation. I will save it. Looks like to me if D. takes me up on my little "bet" I may get a free donut. @Domingo: I will take a jelly-filled donut, please. MMMMmmmm. Donuts.

David Hardy

December 28, 2009  12:04pm

Dan Posted: @Domingo: I bet you a donut that more gays/homosexuals have been killed by gays/homosexuals than by evangelical Christians. So, why would you make such an obviously erroneous statement?…...... Dan…... Here’s your backup… In their frank but empathetic book, "Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them," (1991) David Island, a homosexual domestic violence victim and psychologist, and Patrick Letellier, his homosexual counselor colleague, report that hate crimes are a homosexual and lesbian domestic way of life. These authors document "three major health hazards" for homosexual men and lesbians. After AIDS and chemical abuse, same-sex battery is the third major health hazard for homosexual men. Lesbians' first health hazard is cancer, followed closely by chemical abuse and, yes, same-sex battery. #HYPERLINK "http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98688"http://worldn etdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98688

Dan

December 28, 2009  11:23am

@Domingo: I bet you a donut that more gays/homosexuals have been killed by gays/homosexuals than by evangelical Christians. So, why would you make such an obviously erroneous statement?

David Hardy

December 27, 2009  3:23am

Domingo Posted: American Christians, who for the most part are as sickly homophobic and ignorant as their African counterparts, only need to wait until 2012, when Sarah Palin will be their leader in the White House. Then, they will have their chance to kill as many homosexuals as they like….. Domingo…. Your vitriolic blanket condemnation of Christians indicates that you are not a member of their ranks…. If you were, you would most likely be aware of the fact that the practice of homosexuality is condemned as a detestable practice by God himself… While I agree that practicing homosexuals are the pawns of Satan… I have no desire to execute them and every desire to see them come to a knowledge of Jesus, that leads them to repentance of sin and salvation for their souls… I do not hate you and Jesus loves you Domingo.

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Domingo

December 26, 2009  5:44pm

American Christians, who for the most part are as sickly homophobic and ignorant as their African counterparts, only need to wait until 2012, when Sarah Palin will be their leader in the White House. Then, they will have their chance to kill as many homosexuals as they like.

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Dan

December 25, 2009  6:59am

@CL: Upon reading the multitude of posts more closely I found you DID reference "prevention" on Dec. 23, before I brought up the issue in a later post. I just hadn't seen your reference to the WHO report.

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Dan

December 24, 2009  3:16pm

@CL: "Dan, your words speak for themselves....I've neither mischaracterized them... " Here's my first post: "Christians killing homosexual b/c they are homosexual is a little bit like Jesus helping to stone the woman caught in adultery. Somehow, it just doesn't fit the narrative." (Pretty horrendous comment, huh!) Then you said: "...nor called you names." Here's what you said to me: "Don't be obtuse." (def: lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : insensitive, stupid) AND "I don't think the English language has any names I could call you worthy of that sad occasion." Sooo, whatever you say, CL. Eph. 4:29 - Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth... Let all...slander be put away from you... 32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving...just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." And you've got to admit Hale and Wilder's O Holy Night is a nice gift. And it was sent with best wishes.

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Dan

December 24, 2009  12:26pm

@CL: "...I don't think the English language has any names I could call you worthy of that sad occasion. I will pray for the redemption of your souls from the grips of Darkness." Wow! From bearing false witness of what I said to calling me names (and then saying there weren't worthy names in the English language you could call me!) to praying for me - all in one post! CL, you are amazaaazing - and busy!

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Dan

December 24, 2009  11:39am

@GP ( or is now Dr. C?): For your cheery analysis of HIV/AIDS infection, see Norm Luke's post, "...visit the tens of thousands of kids who are dying of Aids, and preach your liberal teachings of license masquerading as freedom to them."

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Dan

December 24, 2009  11:31am

"American pastors and leaders are united in condemning the legislation while Ugandans are united in support." Ugandan united in support of THEIR OWN law? How dare they? Why, they are just children. Not ready to write their own laws. They certainly need the Western world's benevolent interference. Any patriarchial-minded imperialists out there care to volunteer? Or maybe not.

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Dan

December 24, 2009  11:14am

@DH: "...the Native American Holocaust perpetrated right here in the good ol’USA." Thirty-five + years ago I read that over the course of our history the US govt. made about 1200-1500 ( I don't remember the exact number) treaties with the Indian nations. For 50 extra credit points, how many of those treaties did the Indian Nations break? (a) 500, (b) 1000 (c) 50 (d) none, the US govt. broke every one of them. If you chose "(d) none, the US govt. broke every one of them" you are correct and get 50 extra credit points. These extra credit points and $4.00 will get you a Grande Starbuck's cappuccino.

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Dan

December 24, 2009  10:58am

@CL: " [Dan]...you didn't have to say you dis-believed the WHO experts." Because you can read minds now? (You have at least one thing in common with my wife. Ha!) "Everything you say flies in the face of the FACTS and EVIDENCE put out by the WHO." So you're saying WHO doesn't believe the innocent should be protected and the criminals, thugs, outlaws should be prosecuted? "Rounding up and killing the gays has NOTHING to do with reducing the spread of HIV/AIDS." And you are over in the corner arguing with that "straw guy" again. But I do forgive you for misrepresenting what I've actually said. (And I'm not being sarcastic, CL. Forgiveness is never a topic for levity.) By the by, you should have read my first comment on this thread before you commented on what I believe. Also, I hope you enjoyed Hale and Wilder's O Holy Night. And thanks for praying for me. I never resent prayer from anyone - regardless how misinformed or misdirected. Best wishes for you and yours this Christmas season.

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David Hardy

December 24, 2009  8:38am

Christian Lawyer Posted: But, hey, if endorsing the rounding up and killing of the gays comports with your view (and David Hardy's) of loving the Lord our God with all your heart and mind and soul and loving your neighbors as yourselves, especially on the eve of our celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace, I don't think the English language has any names I could call you worthy of that sad occasion. I will pray for the redemption of your souls from the grips of Darkness…… “CL”…. There is absolutely no comparison to the arbitrary rounding up of homosexuals, as you so prevaricating profess, and the prosecution of willful, disease infested, homosexual murderers,…. It has been my belief ever since I read your first homosexual affirming diatribe, that you are neither Christian, nor a lawyer… Your blatant advocacy of the Satanistic practice of all forms of homosexuality indicates to me who you truly serve… There is good news… Jesus loves you… Why do you refuse his light?

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David Hardy

December 24, 2009  5:39am

Christian Lawyer Posted: Dan, what do you think the "education" is for? Of course it's for "prevention," but "education" is broader than merely rules. Don't be obtuse. Education can help those who are HIV- on how to avoid acquiring it, and those who are HIV+ on how to avoid spreading it…… “CL”….. Do you realize how ridiculous and desperate you sound…. You are looking at condoms like they are a miracle cure for HIV/AIDS…. Should the emblazon them with a Superman logo too?…. Maybe then those who are convinced that they can get a baby girl to love away the HIV/AIDS will at least use a condom before destroying her vagina with their disease infested genitalalia…....... A bizarre belief among many African black men that sex with a virgin -- even a child or baby -- can cure HIV/AIDS is fueling what is already one of the highest child sexual exploitation rates in the world. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25806

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David Hardy

December 24, 2009  5:26am

Christian Lawyer Posted: That leaves David Hardy on the fringe of the fringe, far, far from God's Word….. “CL”…… You come at me with names of people I have never heard of and then say that I am far from God’s word…. Interesting…. God’s word says this…. Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. Leviticus 20:13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense. Romans 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. Romans 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds......

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David Hardy

December 24, 2009  5:26am

1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 1Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 11Timothy 1:10 These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching

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David Hardy

December 24, 2009  5:16am

Thom Posted: Holy Moses!……. Jesus would be appalled if he learned these Taliban-like laws were concocted in his name…… Thom….. Holy Moses and Jesus would be appalled…. Interesting.. So you worship Moses and offer council, to we poor mortals, regarding the personal impressions of Jesus, as it relates to the law being considered in Uganda…. Personally I worship Jesus, and from sampling the fruit of your post, I would say that about the only thing you know about him is his earthly name… Oh and FYI… If you are going to castigate Uganda for the actions of Idi Amin Dada… I would suggest that you first remove the log, of the Native American Holocaust perpetrated right here in the good ol’USA, back in the day, from your eye, so you can see more clearly…

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Gregory Peterson

December 24, 2009  2:07am

Using a condom is like playing Russian Roulette with a BB gun. You can still get shot, but...death is much less likely. Not using a condom is like substituting a real gun for the BB gun. I think that discouraging condom use is immoral. It encourages people into dangerously fatalistic behavior, when all they may want is a little adventure. Encouraging dangerously fatalistic behavior seems to be a high priority for the religious right, in my jaundiced observation. --- To change metaphors, I think it's better to try to keep people afloat, rather than to attempt a rescue after they've hit bottom. I don't swim all that well anymore. I'm getting old. Merry Christmas and Good Will To All.

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Gregory Peterson

December 24, 2009  1:29am

I have an "incurable and fatal disease, and I'm going to die." So what? I'm just unlucky. Bad luck happens. It's now only fatal if I don't get treatment, and we're all going to die. Syphilis didn't seem to stop Victorians. AIDS doesn't stop people from having sex today. We know how to not get it, and still have sex. You don't have to spread it if you do have it , and yet still have sex. If you live here, HIV is quite treatable, but you don't want it anyway. Drugs have side effects, you CAN be unlucky, and I'd rather go to Aruba than the pharmacy. A "death sentence" doesn't stop people anyway (it didn't stop Adam and Eve), especially if they feel mired in anomie...a deep feeling that your society is unjust, capricious and irrational. Anomie, of course, is pretty much what Uganda, and the religious right in general, are really promoting to Gay people. --- No, I'm not HIV positive, and yes, I don't forget to use a condom...Merry Christmas and good will to all.

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Dan

December 24, 2009  1:12am

@CL: RE - the condom comment. Using a condom to protect yourself from HIV is a little like playing Russian Roulette with a revolver and a single bullet in the cylinder. Not using a condom when having sex with an HIV infected partner is like playing Russian Roulette with a fully loaded cylinder. It is sad beyond my ability to express it that innocent women and children have to play Russian Roulette with their health. But Pres. Bush tried to do something about it, didn't he - $15,000,000,000. This was not lost on the Africans.

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Dan

December 24, 2009  12:59am

@CL: And to let you know I have forgiven you, I'm giving this to you for a Christmas present. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kTWnQ_1bUE Enjoy it. (Hale and Wilder sing "O Holy Night")

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Dan

December 24, 2009  12:45am

@CL: "...what do you think the "education" is for? Don't be obtuse." And yet you seem to be angry at having to use the word PREVENTION. Hmmmm. How long have you had these feelings of antipathy toward that word, CL? I know that many libs/progs/posts don't like to talk about "prevention". They prefer general terms like "education". Education can be many things. "Testing" and "treatment" could have been subsumed under "education" - ya know. And "Sure, you're entitled to disbelieve WHO, but until you show me your degree in epidemiology or public health, I'm going to side with the actual experts rather than your judgmental short-sightedness." And I don't recall ever saying I disbelieved WHO, CL. But for the straw guy who doesn't, you sure zinged him, huh. And if it makes you feel better to call me names, well, then go ahead. I forgive you. I have been called much worse than obtuse, judgmental and shortsighted. (Bah Humbug for liberal tolerance, tho.)

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Dan

December 23, 2009  11:27pm

@Thom: Jesus did live in a culture with some pretty Taliban-like laws. Crucifixtion immediately comes to mind. And what did Jesus have to say to the Roman govt.? To the Jews? Fact is, if practicing homosexuals don't want to be executed for practicing homosexuality, well, then they should just abstain. Just like heterosexuals do, who don't want to be arrested for going to a prostitute.

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Dan

December 23, 2009  11:11pm

"...ongoing comprehensive programs for education, testing, and treatment..." How about PREVENTION! Did you forget PREVENTION? What kind of education can you give someone who has HIV/AIDS in order to prevent its spread? Don't forget to use a condom? How about - you've got an incurable and fatal disease and you're going to die. And that if you have sex with someone you may give them that incurable and fatal disease, too. Therefore, you really shouldn't have sex with anyone -ever again.

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Thom

December 23, 2009  10:09pm

Holy Moses! The response by evangelicals such as Rick Warren and Chuck Colson, while greatly appreciated, are indeed a little late in coming. It has been widely reported that these two men, especially Pastor Warren, have been fanning the flames of homophobia ifor years before the hair-piece wearing Pastor Rick made the "Great Reversal" of his opinion during a recent interview on Larry King. I guess better late than never. However, I am reminded of a very interesting fact pointed out by the author of "The Year of Living Biblically." In The Bible, there are as many condemnations of the "inappropriate use of measuring scales" as there are condemnations of homosexuality. Uganda has a horrific history of human rights under the dictatorship of Idi Amin. Hopefully its Christian churches will avoid this same kind of brutal dictatorship. Jesus would be appalled if he learned these Taliban-like laws were concocted in his name.

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David Hardy

December 23, 2009  8:30pm

Christian Lawyer Posted: the provision he quotes, the section imposing the death penalty for "Aggravated Homosexuality," makes it clear that this bill (which is NOT the comprehensive HIV/AIDS bill he referenced earlier) ONLY applies to SAME SEX sexual conduct, what the bill defines as the "offence" of "homosexuality," and therefore DOES NOT COVER MEN who rape WOMEN or GIRLS….. “CL”….. If they are already in prison or have been executed for aggravated homosexuality, it will, in all probability severely curtail the rape of babies and women by HIV/AIDS infected sexual predators… And it would also appear that the omnibus mentioned would cinch the noose even tighter by expanding the willful transmission of the BLACK PLAGUE of HIV/AIDS to persons of any gender… By all accounts it looks like UGANDA is taking the necessary steps to incarcerate and/or eradicate the willfully murderous HIV/AIDS infected vermin from it's populace... Go to Kampala and shout you heterophobia at the Ugandans.

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Dan

December 23, 2009  8:19pm

@Dene: "...we cannot and MUST not legislate ... that does not change people's hearts." We legislate every day, Dene. Laws are created to protect innocent people and insure their rights. So, do you want that "abomination" (your word!) legitimated? Given your reasoning would you have so pleaded with Wm Wilberforce to abandon his cause for the abolition of slavery? Why is it okay for the bible to call homosexuality "abominable" yet when someone else expresses such a reaction, suddenly it is hateful? Reasoning backwards one could conclude the bible is hateful toward homosexuals. And true, sin is sin, but we're talking about the sin of homosexuality specifically. If we want to talk about the sin of gluttony, well, then I guess we could, but we would be off topic.

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David Hardy

December 23, 2009  7:57pm

Dene Posted: I am devastated to read responses from people who I presume are christians that sound so full of hate. Yes, the bible speaks of homosexuality as an abomination before God, but I don't see an even handed application of some christian's so-called "righteous indignation" being applied .….. Our role is to state the truth, forgive in Christs name, command to go and sin no more - but to keep the heart of Jesus ... meaning we do the right thing ... we cannot and MUST not legislate ... that does not change people's hearts. …. Dene….. Sin is the ugliest thing on the face of the earth… It is what caused this world to come under a curse… Sin separates us from God and if nor remedied by the shed blood of Jesus will cause a peson to be condemned to hell forever along with Satan and his angels… Sin is never forgiven without first being acknowledged by the sinner and repented of… Sin must be punished, criminal murder should be too... Love does not enable sin... Love condemns sin...

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Dene

December 23, 2009  6:31pm

I am devastated to read responses from people who I presume are christians that sound so full of hate. Yes, the bible speaks of homosexuality as an abomination before God, but I don't see an even handed application of some christian's so-called "righteous indignation" being applied ... Sin is sin, whether or not it involves homosexuality, adultery etc etc. Christ forgave the adulteress when all others would have stoned her, yes commanding her to "go and sin no more" ... but we have no evidence that she didn't sin again. Our role is to state the truth, forgive in Christs name, command to go and sin no more - but to keep the heart of Jesus ... meaning we do the right thing ... we cannot and MUST not legislate ... that does not change people's hearts.

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David Hardy

December 23, 2009  3:40pm

Greg Peterson Posted: I think not, but I'm obviously a dreadful secularist liberal, so what do I know about morality? …… Gregory… The only thing straight about the godless, reprehensible, practice of homosexuality is that it comes straight out of the bowels of Satan himself… From EVERYTHING I have seen and read, practicing homosexuals and their rat cheerleader advocates are more concerned about coprophilia, than they are about any heterosexuals human rights…. The whole world over... Practicing homosexuals have absolutely no qualms about shoving their perversion down the throats of and their diseased genitalia into any available orifice of those who are not as sold out to Satan as they are…

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Dan

December 23, 2009  3:38pm

And furthermore, before the gay/homosexual activists complain that hetero's are unkind and uncaring about the poor Africans and their AIDS crisis, may I remind them that Pres. Bush committed $15 billion to stem the tide of that awful disease. That commitment was not lost on the Africans. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28605888/from/RSS/#storyContinued

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Dan

December 23, 2009  3:21pm

I say let the Ugandans decide how best to stop the HIV/AIDs scourage in their country. I haven't heard any solutions from the homosexual activists. Just nattering nabobs proclaiming their right to legitimize their own brand of sexual expression (read perversion) - regardless of the health risks. They seem more concerned that gays in Uganda have the right to homosexual encounters than that AIDs/HIV is destroying a whole continent.

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Greg Peterson

December 23, 2009  1:25pm

Yes, the disgusting predations of a pair other-sex pederasts in another country, is the perfect moral reason to scapegoat Gay Ugandans. The wild and reprehensible life of an airline steward, way back in the Swinging Seventies, is a perfectly moral reason to scapegoat Gay Ugandans today. Gay Ugandans are all, I'm sure, highly mobile jet set types, and pathologically promiscuous sexual predators who would rather rape little girls in other countries, than to have adult, mutually consenting, same-sex relationships at home. So that would mean, then, that the "Lord's Resistance Army" and their horrific Christmas massacres in the Congo, is therefore the perfect moral reason to scapegoat all Christian Ugandans? I think not, but I'm obviously a dreadful secularist liberal, so what do I know about morality?

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David Hardy

December 23, 2009  7:51am

3. Aggravated homosexuality. (1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the (a) person against whom the offence is committed is below the age of 18 years; (b) offender is a person living with HIV; (c) offender is a parent or guardian of the person against whom the offence is committed; (d) offender is a person in authority over the person against whom the offence is committed; (e) victim of the offence is a person with disability; (f) offender is a serial offender, or (g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex, (2) A person who commits the offence of aggravated homosexuality shall be liable on conviction to suffer death. http://wthrockmorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/anti-homosexuality-bill -2009.pdf

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David Hardy

December 22, 2009  10:49pm

Christian Lawyer Posted: Once again, this bill will do NOTHING to prevent the rape of little girls because it ONLY criminalizes SAME SEX sexual conduct….. Read the bill, people….. “CL”….. It would appear that you yourself are ignorant regarding the bill, willfully or otherwise..... Or simply a willful prevaricator…..... The Uganda government has introduced in Parliament an omnibus AIDS bill which aims to criminalize the "intentional or willful" transmission of HIV, introduce "routine" HIV testing for pregnant women, and require disclosure of one's HIV-positive status to one's spouse or partner. The bill also contains measures to protect the rights of people living with HIV/AIDS, including guaranteeing access to treatment and providing protection against discrimination. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26677935_Uganda_P roposed_bill_would_criminalize_HIV_transmission_force_partners_to_reveal_HI V-positive_status

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David Hardy

December 22, 2009  9:12pm

Dan Posted: "The little girl needed extensive surgery..." "Give 'im a fair trial and string 'im up." Judge Roy Bean …… Dan….. The virulent fleas who willfully spread the BLACK PLAGUE of HIV/AIDS are in North America as well…....... “The doctors at the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta called him "Patient Zero." A stunningly handsome French-Canadian airline steward, Gaetan Dugas had over 2,500 male sexual partners on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean by the time he died at age 31........ Long after his diagnosis, Dugas would sodomize willing partners in dimly lit cubicles, then turn up the lights and point to the purplish Kaposi's sarcoma lesions on his skin. "I've got gay cancer," he would say. "I'm going to die, and so are you." http://www.fumento.com/shilts.html

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Dan

December 22, 2009  2:16pm

"The little girl needed extensive surgery..." "Give 'im a fair trial and string 'im up." Judge Roy Bean

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Dan

December 22, 2009  1:07pm

The point is this: innocent people - especially children - need to be protected from the criminals, outlaws, thugs, etc. What do you do to protect them? If you find HIV infected people infecting others, what do you do to stop them? How many people do you allow that HIV carrier to infect before you stop him/her? What do you do to protect society?

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David Hardy

December 22, 2009  12:09pm

Perplexed Posted: Can we dispense with the convenient fiction that this law has any real concern with HIV / AIDS. It is simply making the situation of gays and lesbians (and whoever got HIV from a lesbian) even harder.… Perplexed…. This is not arbitrary…. And it has EVERYTHING to do with HIV/AIDS.... On a poor Johannesburg estate, a family of eight sleep in one dirty bedroom. Last week a neighbour seized the nine year old daughter, showed her pornographic magazines and then raped and indecently assaulted her. He gave her a few coins, and said sorry. The little girl needed extensive surgery - her mother and father are inconsolable. "I'm very angry, I'm very angry, I don't know how to take my anger out. I don't know why he did this, he used to come here and play with my children..." said the mother. The father said he wanted to hunt down the rapists. "How many parents' hearts must be broken?" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1703595.stm

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David Hardy

December 22, 2009  12:01pm

Greg Peterson Posted: The constructive advice is that scapegoating Gay people will likely not help the HIV crisis, so stop it…........ Gregory…. Rapists and murderers are not scapegoats… They are criminals… Two men are due to appear at a court in Johannesburg on Tuesday, accused of raping a five-month-old girl who was discovered covered in blood and in tears. It is the latest in a series of rapes of baby girls - some of them involving children less than one year-old, which has left South Africans reeling with horror. Every day the newspapers bring awful revelations: a nine-month-old girl gang-raped by six men; an eight-month-old raped and left by the roadside……... Rape statistics from South Africa are so shocking as to be almost unbelievable - women's rights activists say one South African is raped every 26 seconds......... Traditional healers, or witchdoctors, are blamed for spreading this idea, and encouraging child rape. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1703595.stm

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David Hardy

December 22, 2009  11:52am

Perplexed Posted: I will try and be a constructive "armchair quarterback."….. Remember rape is used as terror tactic in the conflict in northern Uganda. Homosexuals are being used as a scapegoat.….. Perplexed…. You don’t get out of your armchair much, do you?… The government is appealing for calm. .It is also trying to dispel a widespread rumour - that having sex with a virgin cures Aids. Traditional healers, or witchdoctors, are blamed for spreading this idea, and encouraging child rape. A sociologist, Lisa Vetton, draws a parallel with Europe, when child prostitution was rampant "At that time venereal disease like Aids today was incurable. If you had gonorrhea or syphilis you were going to die. And exactly the same myth emerged, that sex with a virgin is going to cure you - so it seems like a very old response whenever sex and death are combined. Suddenly women - girls - get attributed with magical healing powers". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1703595.stm

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Perplexed

December 21, 2009  6:36pm

Can we dispense with the convenient fiction that this law has any real concern with HIV / AIDS. It is simply making the situation of gays and lesbians (and whoever got HIV from a lesbian) even harder. It is already illegal anyway in Uganda and gays and lesbians are subject to arbitrary violence.

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John

December 21, 2009  4:34pm

Not all America pastors disagree with the Ugandian law. So you might rethink your phrase "America pastors are united" implying that all pastors agree with the condemnation of law. Some of us agree with it!!!!

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Greg Peterson

December 21, 2009  3:23pm

The constructive advice is that scapegoating Gay people will likely not help the HIV crisis, so stop it. As even Pastor Warren has pointed out in his letter, it might even contribute to making things worse. If HIV becomes stigmatized as a "homosexual" disease, instead of a human disease, things could well get worse. (Pastor Warren himself is hardly respectful to Gay people in his letter to Ugandan pastors. He apparently can't even say "Gay." How disrespectful is it to refuse to say one's name? Instead, he uses "homosexual," a long rejected, clinical diagnosis label that plays into the anti-GLBT prejudices, anti-Gay Bible translations and paraphrases, and anti-Gay conspiracy theories. It's good that he condemned the scapegoat Gay people law. It's bad that he disrespects and condescends to Gay people at the same time.)

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Perplexed

December 21, 2009  2:39pm

I will try and be a constructive "armchair quarterback." As I understand it Uganda has - compared to many African nations - done comparatively well in stemming the HIV rate through education and resourcing. Of course there is never enough money to throw at any health crisis. In Africa the predominant method of transmission is through herterosexual intercourse. Prostitution is widespread and often prostitutes have little say in whether or not a condom is used. Likewise the wives of these men have little say. In some parts of Africa men believe sex with a virgin will cure them of HIV / AIDS. You see the problem here. Men need to respect women and the law needs to support that. Where is the legal recourse for a woman whose husband compels her to have sex? How seriously is rape prosecuted? Remember rape is used as terror tactic in the conflict in northern Uganda. Homosexuals are being used as a scapegoat. Improve the lot of women and something will be achieved.

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Anna

December 21, 2009  12:15pm

What a joke, Americans complaining about the death penalty for anyone! Here in Europe we banished the death penalty in the 60's for any crime. Leave the Ugandans alone to sort themselves and their laws out., as we leave you in the USA to your laws. In fact,..leave us all alone and sort out your your own country. Would have thought that is a full-time job! Stop first the death penalty in the USA before you go around the world preaching. Hypocrites! It is Their business alone. Why does i.e. Rick Warren not dare go to middle Eastern countries and moan at them i.e. in Iran where adulterers and homosexuals are put to death? He is scared of the backlash of course. NO he soft-soaps the muslims !Coward, so he complains to Christians in Africa. Easy option of course, no fear of a fatwa against him---pathetic

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Dan

December 21, 2009  11:21am

Those of you who are scandalized and outraged by the proposed Ugandan legislation have yet to offer any helpful advice - not that the Ugandans would take it (but it would be interesting to hear). I heard once that large portions of Africa are being de-populated due to the AIDS epidemic. I also heard several years ago that 48% (?) of Kenyan govt. workers were infected with HIV. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and critique the team on the field, but what would you do if your country is in danger of such a holocaust as the Ugandans apparently are - and other African countries as well.

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David Hardy

December 20, 2009  10:07pm

J. H. Posted: And I don't really see the point of singling out homosexuals in regards to child rape or knowingly spreading HIV since that's someone heterosexuals can do just as easily,….. J.H… Perhaps for this reason…. To the present time, 75 to 85 percent of AIDS cases reported are related to homosexual activity, promiscuous heterosexual sex and IV drug abuse. AIDS stubbornly refuses to spread into the population in general, even 20 years after its discovery, despite dire warnings to the contrary…. We are seeing the natural consequences of violating nature's laws now. They are also a warning to prevent the ultimate eternal consequences. How many will ignore that warning and continue to call the messenger a bigot and continue to shake their fist at God? How many will heed that warning of a loving Father, ready to forgive and reconcile His prodigal children?.. marysremnant.org/Friends/DBK/BKHomAids.html

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David Hardy

December 20, 2009  9:32pm

Christian Lawyer Posted: Re "the rampaging, out of control, premeditated homosexual murderers who knowingly spread HIV/AIDS, through the raping of women and children."…. “CL”…. Thank you so much for reiterating a very important point and for bring up another reality… The willful murderous activities of the BLACK DEATH-HIV/AIDS positive virulent fleas need to be stopped… No matter how they identify themselves sexually… And no matter how they, passively or aggressively, sexually infect others with the BLACK PLAGUE of HIV/AIDS!.....Romans 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

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J. H.

December 20, 2009  7:38pm

Many cultures, Muslims for example, have harsh punishments for homosexuality, as well as hundreds of other things no sane person would consider a crime (300 lashes for a woman sipping on a beer at a party?) but I don't see a whole lot of international outcry about -them-. Honestly I think it's a good thing that there's -some- kind of legal consequences to help discourage both homosexuality and adultery, but this bill would take it to extremes that I think even a lot of Ugandans wouldn't be comfortable with if they knew the details. And I don't really see the point of singling out homosexuals in regards to child rape or knowingly spreading HIV since that's someone heterosexuals can do just as easily, but in the end it's their country and they're going to do whatever they want. (To the "The Ugandans are Right" guy above me, do you really feel our role as Christians should be to judge and harshly punish sinners rather than try and help them onto the right path?)

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Dan

December 20, 2009  6:32pm

"The punishment for "serial offenders," homosexual sex with minors or the disabled, or homosexual sex while being HIV-positive, is death." Now that's what I call a deterrant!

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The Ugandans Are Right

December 20, 2009  8:54am

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion...Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them" (Romans 1:26-32 NIV). Paul could have been describing the liberal "Christians" of our era.

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Warren Bethune

December 19, 2009  7:00pm

I refer people to Matthew 7: 1-6 and Romans 1: Washington D.C this week has decided to adopt the values the Romans and the few countries and states within the United States had adopted ignoring Jesus multi-level warning about judgement. "Do not give what is holy to dogs" ... St. Paul's description of why homosexual behaviour flourishes in certain societies. "Professing to be wise, they became fools" When humans do not honour God God gave them over of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonoured among them. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions, for their woman exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in desire toward one another, ... And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer... In 30 days Who will listen to the United States? with this matter and the absence of healing ini health care. Expect more snowstorms!

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David Hardy

December 19, 2009  3:56pm

Perplexed Posted: David Hardy compared homosexuals to the "virulent fleas which ride in on the back of their rat cheerleaders." What can I say? Is this an ad campaign for Rentokill? Or simply offensive, hateful nonsense? Violent dehumanising language tends to lead to violent dehumanising behaviour…. …..Perplexed…. Perhaps you are more confused than perplexed… While the practice of homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God, my reference to the virulent homosexual fleas, is reserved for those HIV/AIDS (Black Plague) infected homosexuals who continue to rape and infect, innocent children and women, with absolutely no regard for the lives of their victims… While all the while riding on the backs of their rat carrier/promoters…. I hope this clarifies things for you…

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Perplexed

December 19, 2009  11:38am

David Hardy compared homosexuals to the "virulent fleas which ride in on the back of their rat cheerleaders." What can I say? Is this an ad campaign for Rentokill? Or simply offensive, hateful nonsense? Violent dehumanising language tends to lead to violent dehumanising behaviour.

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Dan

December 19, 2009  10:56am

@http://ketch22.wordpress.com Posted: December 19, 2009 10:34 AM "And Dan... try understanding that this isn't about HIV..." Try telling that to the children and other innocents dying of AIDS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- " But it is not for us to kill others because they sin..." I never said it was - unless it is an offense that includes the death penalty. In my opinion, an HIV infected person (homosexual/heterosexual) who willingly and knowingly infects another, should be considered for the death penalty if that is the law. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - "...it is for us to preach the Gospel, going into every corner of the world to do it, and to understand that the end is already written..." Matt. 28:19, 20

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http://ketch22.wordpress.com

December 19, 2009  10:34am

And Dan... try understanding that this isn't about HIV, it is about the Christian thing to do in a world full of sin. I am not liberal, I am a conservative Christian against abortion (but I don't believe in killing abortionists), against homosexuality (but I don't believe in killing homosexuals), against the prosperity gospel, against any religion which keeps people from Christ. But it is not for us to kill others because they sin, it is for us to preach the Gospel, going into every corner of the world to do it, and to understand that the end is already written... not everybody will come to Christ but we win in the end. Sin will not be stamped from this planet until Christ's return... let us just help reach the hearts we can and let God do the rest.

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Fred , Aberdeenshire , Scotland

December 19, 2009  10:03am

When reading the events of the woman that was taken in adultery and was brought to Christ many people misread the account as if Christ is saying we have not the right to judge where as what Christ was talking about is not judgement but punishment. Christ does not say to the woman go off and do as you want but "Go and sin no more". Of course in the UK to pass any criticism on sexuality or religions , other than Christianity , is to possibly end up in court. The House of Lords , our upper house , has only recently thrown out , by a narrow margin , the fourth attempt to do away with Christians rights to discuss or express the Christian viewpoint on these matters. If the bill had passed it could have meant up to seven years in prison. The Devil is having a great time using this to silence Christians helped by the likes of the Archbishop of Canterbury dismissing Romans Ch. 1. as a theses by Paul on the pagans.

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Anonymous

December 19, 2009  9:51am

Bob II states: "I don't know of any genuine Christians who are hateful towards repentant homosexuals, Ketch, but what should our attitude be toward the unrepentant? Or those who claim their homosexuality is part of God's creative plan for their lives." Well, Bob... since I don't always recognize my sin as sin... I am often unrepentant of specific sins. I am repentant of all sin, whether I know it is a sin or I don't. Maybe my reply here is a sin... full of pride, etc... I don't think it is, but nontheless, I repent. A homosexual doesn't recognize their sin as a sin, but a Christian is repentant whether they recognize it or not. If they believe their homosexuality is part of God's creative plan for their lives, let God deal with that... all we can do is continue to love them as Jesus does. Now if a homosexuality doesn't know Jesus, it is our job to make known this Truth... but if they do, who are we seeped in sin to judge? Are all your sins known?

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Dan

December 19, 2009  8:31am

@Norm Luke: "Try visiting South Africa and visit the tens of thousands of kids who are dying of Aids, and preach your liberal teachings of license masquerading as freedom to them." Witness!

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Dan

December 19, 2009  8:16am

@Perplexed: Mark Twain said: "All schools, all colleges, have two great functions: to confer, and to conceal, valuable knowledge. The theological knowledge which they conceal cannot justly be regarded as less valuable than that which they reveal. That is, when a man is buying a basket of strawberries it can profit him to know that the bottom half of it is rotten." Now, MT may not be an authority on much of anything, but he had a pretty good baloney detector.

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David Hardy

December 19, 2009  8:15am

B.A. Atheist Posted: As to Mr Hardy, who wrote "There is no honor in quitting and no knowledge gained by quitters." I also quit believing in Santa. Mr Hardy, do you still believe in Santa?. . . . B. A...... Nope.... and there goes all of my credibility for expounding on the intricacies of how he is able to know just who has been naughty and who has been nice…. Oh yeah… I drink the milk and eat the cookies too….

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B.A. Atheist

December 19, 2009  7:48am

Wow. I'm surprised! My previous post of.."Kill homosexuals...Love homosexuals...One must wonder that if you all are being guided by the same "holy spirit," then why such completely opposite "guidance" and interpretation of scripture? You can't all be right...but you can all be wrong." was removed by ChristianityToday. I guess the truth hurts, doesn't it? Or was it just censorship of an oppostional idea? As to Mr Hardy, who wrote "There is no honor in quitting and no knowledge gained by quitters." I also quit believing in Santa. Mr Hardy, do you still believe in Santa?. . . . REASON'S GREETINGS

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David Hardy

December 19, 2009  5:40am

Perplexed Posted: David Hardy, I hesitate to make a reply as your contributions to this thread have been marked by an abusiveness that ill becomes debate amongst Christians. …….As for me being foolish, well maybe, but the path to ordination and post graduate study has left me able to offer a reasonably argued and informed opinion. To be frank the only thing which perplexes me at the moment is your monomaniacal obsession with this issue.….. Perplexed….. I am so cowed by the preponderance of you educational achievements, as well as your straw man army of supporters… AIDS is the modern Black Plague… Homosexuals are the virulent fleas that ride in on the backs of their rat cheerleaders…. Uganda appears to be more concerned with human rights, than virulent flea rights… And I say that it's about time someone had the courage to do so...

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Norm Luke

December 19, 2009  5:08am

You Americans are so strong on the separation of Church and State, yet you self-righteously stick your oar in at every opportunity, and egregiously pontificate on issues on which you have no real understanding whatsoever. Try visiting South Africa and visit the tens of thousands of kids who are dying of Aids, and preach your liberal teachings of license masquerading as freedom to them.

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Perplexed

December 19, 2009  4:36am

David Hardy, I hesitate to make a reply as your contributions to this thread have been marked by an abusiveness that ill becomes debate amongst Christians. However I think a fair number of people out there will agree with my sentiments. You presume to judge the faith and integrity of people you have never met on the basis of a couple of sentences. As for me being foolish, well maybe, but the path to ordination and post graduate study has left me able to offer a reasonably argued and informed opinion. To be frank the only thing which perplexes me at the moment is your monomaniacal obsession with this issue. An argument based on abuse and shouting louder than anyone else will not hold.

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  10:33pm

Joe Chip Posted: People on the fence regarding this bill (the mind reels) should sit down and read it. Wikipedia is a good place to start. Money quote: "If passed, the bill will require anyone who is aware of anyone who is offending this act to report them within 24 hours. If an individual does not do so he or she "commit[s] an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding 250 currency points or imprisonment not exceeding three years." What this is doing is setting the foundation for wholesale abuse and murder of gays...... Joe..... The pending legislation is about prosecuting HIV/AIDS infected homosexual rapists and murderers… It is not about about homosexual genocide…

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  10:21pm

Tiho Posted: I am not a pro-gay movement sympathizer. Nor am I sure that their agenda represents a legitimate human rights cause.…… However, when in the 21st century a government desires to Christianize the country by introducing a sharia-type law, then I have no choice but join a few who have already taken a stand against it. For how much difference is there between a Christian nation that kills homosexuals and a radical Islamic country that religiously executes women supposedly caught in adultery? There must be a better way indeed to advocate Christian values, standards and ethics than playing God or quietly approving of the dangerous law…… Tiho…. Your agenda reveals an obvious lack of sincerity with your premise… You are ignorant, willfully or otherwise about the pending legislation in Uganda… Yet you do not hesitate to advocate for homosexuals and condemn Christians…

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  10:14pm

Bill Posted: It seems that these days, Christianity is simply a bunch of gay-haters. It really seems that hating gay people is the only thing that binds you together. It seems, to the outside world, that all Christianity is ABOUT is hatred. And Christians seem to care less about that. Just reading the comments section here is enough for me to place Christianity into the same mental group that I place the KKK. I have come to fear and loathe Christianity and all of its members as much as I do the Islamic extremists, who, by and large, share the same belief system that American Christians do. That makes Jesus sad. But more importantly, it destroys humanity…............ Bill… You fear and loath Christianity and then you pretend to know the mind of Jesus…. I would say that you know very little about Christianity outside of your vitriolic factoidal conjecture and I would also doubt that you know Jesus personally.

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  10:07pm

Perplexed Posted: Doesn't this bill also compel family members and others -including clergy- to denounce those they know to be gay or lesbian?.... Perplexed.... Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.... Perhaps if you studied more and spoke less you would not be so perplexed...

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  10:00pm

James Posted: David: you sound as crazy and obsessed as the goose-steppers from 70 years ago…. James… The only thing that the Jews were guilty of in Nazi Germany was being Jewish… How dare you even begin to associate the Jews with HIV/AIDS infected homosexuals who rape women and children and infect them with their incurable disease!!… Why don’t homosexuals go on over to Kampala and have a gay pride parade to drum up sympathy from the Ugandan people for your most noble cause of promoting the godless practice of homosexuality… I am certain that the citizens of Uganda will fall at their feet while they prance around in leather and lace, engaging in lewd PDA's and shouting, “We’re here!” “We’re queer!” “Get used to it!”

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B J

December 18, 2009  6:58pm

Friendly Reminder: Please attack the issues not the person. Comments that include name calling or slurs will be removed. Thanks for your cooperation. -BJ Christianity Today Community

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Joe Chip

December 18, 2009  3:54pm

People on the fence regarding this bill (the mind reels) should sit down and read it. Wikipedia is a good place to start. Money quote: "If passed, the bill will require anyone who is aware of anyone who is offending this act to report them within 24 hours. If an individual does not do so he or she "commit[s] an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding 250 currency points or imprisonment not exceeding three years." What this is doing is setting the foundation for wholesale abuse and murder of gays. It allows for government intrusion into churches, homes and family affairs and seeks to make informants of the citizenry. This bill not only reeks of the worst evils of the past (Report the Jew! Report the bourgeois! Report the Christian! It's your duty!) but to the civilized world it looks like the disgusting, immoral and, yes, Satanic bill that it is. Let me ask you: Who is glorified when homosexuals are turned over to the state and imprisoned or killed?

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Tiho

December 18, 2009  3:44pm

I am not a pro-gay movement sympathizer. Nor am I sure that their agenda represents a legitimate human rights cause. I believe that the issues such as poverty, widespread forms of injustice and modern slavery, abuse of children, lack of healthcare for all, environment pollution, increase of wars and violence speak with greater urgency. However, when in the 21st century a government desires to Christianize the country by introducing a sharia-type law, then I have no choice but join a few who have already taken a stand against it. For how much difference is there between a Christian nation that kills homosexuals and a radical Islamic country that religiously executes women supposedly caught in adultery? There must be a better way indeed to advocate Christian values, standards and ethics than playing God or quietly approving of the dangerous law.

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Bob II

December 18, 2009  2:52pm

ketch 22 post: "As a Christian, I struggle with these sins and often allow them to win... but I am forgiven because I repent. Why aren't we allowing the homosexual the same opportunities?" I don't know of any genuine Christians who are hateful towards repentant homosexuals, Ketch, but what should our attitude be toward the unrepentant? Or those who claim their homosexuality is part of God's creative plan for their lives. To reference your analogies, if someone stands up and claims that pride or greed are not sins but actual goods, is that not calling evil good? Patience and love for sinners does not rule out identifying sin. II Tim 2:24-6 "The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind,...able to teach, correcting opponents with gentleness . God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will."

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Dan

December 18, 2009  1:13pm

@Bill: "... the Islamic extremists, who, by and large, share the same belief system that American Christians do." Those danged Southern Baptists keep strapping on the suicide belts and blowing themselves up - don't they Bill. Oh yeah, and conservative evangelicals just hate homosexuals - that's why conservative Christians are slaughtering homosexuals by the thousands - aren't they Bill.

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Rev. Blackwood

December 18, 2009  12:00pm

I do not agree with killing any sinner, for that all of us should die or shoul be dead. Jesus hate sin but loved the sinner, that is our mission. People in witch craft were killed by christians, ¡wrong! they should be delivered. Jesus and the appostles perfomed deliverance, and healed the sick, that is why Jesus died on the Cross, with His death was enough, there should not be any more. Even though the adulteress was going to be killed because of her sin, Jesus said that the one whom has no sin cast the first stone. We should stop public exposure of any kind of inmorallity, pornography, and anything that will affect society and our children, but not to the point to kill the offender. The Christian world should be praying for these people, we do not have battle against flesh nor blood but against evil and powers of darkness, and wicked spirits in the heavenly realms, these are the ones we are suppose to be up against and cast out in the name of Jesus, that is our mission as Christians.

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Rev. Blackwood

December 18, 2009  11:10am

Any cconduct that is against the will of God, the person is controlled by satan, and as Paul told the Romans in Chapter 7: 14 The trouble is not with the law but with me, because I am sold into slavery with sin as my master. I have read all kinds of oppinions on the homosexuality issue in Uganda, but until now I have not read or heard any one talk about the power of God to set the captive free. God has given all that believe in Jesus the power to deliver the sinner, why not talk about that! I have performed deliverance on lesbians and homosexuals and God has set them free, and free in deed. You con lock up the person, but you cannot lock up the evil spirit that is whitin. Anyone that wish to be delivered from an evil spirit will be by the power of God, as simple as that. The book of Isaiah 61: He has sent me to comfort the brokenhearted and set the captives ( all those in their sin and desobedience ). They need deliverance, those sexual perverted demons has to be cast out in Jesus name

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Perplexed

December 18, 2009  10:51am

Doesn't this bill also compel family members and others -including clergy- to denounce those they know to be gay or lesbian? If so it undermines both family life and the trust and confidance that Christians should be able to have in those charged with their pastoral care. In a country where HIV is endemic and is overwhelmingly the result of heterosexual transmission there seem to be more pressing issues. What are the laws around the coercion of women into having sex (including marital rape?) But no, it is homosexuality and homosexuals who are the targets of this righteous (sic) indignation. To criticise is to lay oneself open to charges of cultural imperialism (though some African Christian leaders obviously feel free to critique Western culture and society.) There seems nothing to commend this law. It will only generate fear and loathing.

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Paul

December 18, 2009  10:09am

I have heard numerous comments make reference between Uganda and the Holocaust, but if we look at the people who spoke against the Nazi regime, they spoke directly against the practices of the wealthy Christians. Bonhoeffer said that the 'bourgeoisie, elites, and artisan classes have pushed the poor and working classes out of the churches'. American Christians need to look at their practices in reference to the accumulation of wealth, individualism, and the prison industrial complex, right on their back porch. We are so accepting of diverse people and we have no problems with homosexuals. Ya, probably as long as they make a lot of money. The U.S. has imprisoned more people than any other nation, because simply put, not every individual can keep up with the rate of the increase in wealth, therefore, people are systematically shut out of society! We consume the rest of the world's natural resources, then turn around and judge them?

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  9:44am

ketch22 Posted: Why aren't we allowing the homosexual the same opportunities? After a sinful encounter with the same sex, shouldn't we be showing them Jesus instead of prison?.... Ketch... In Uganda, it is not a question of sexuality... It is a question of willful murder...

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  9:38am

Peter Posted: Any group that preaches or teaches that the killing of other human beings is in anyway acceptable is not of Christ. It is, ANTI-CHRIST.... Peter... So the murdering HIV/AIDS infected homosexuals who are raping women and children and in effect giving them a death sentence should do so with the blessing of the church?

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  9:34am

Susan Posted: It's the height of irony when the banner ad on this page is a book, entitled, "When a Nation Forgets God" (a book about Christian Germany and the Nazis) and the topic below is mass murder of gay people with Christian support.... Susan.. Willfully or otherwise, you are completly ignorant... Study up... It is not a human rights issue... It is a criminal murder issue...

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James

December 18, 2009  9:25am

To David Hardy and others that would twist scripture to somehow find genocide and mass-murder acceptable. Similar attitudes among Christians have occured in past times against Blacks, Jews and others. The idea/genesis of Kristallnacht did not originate from Herr Hitler in the 1930s. It originated from Herr Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, 400 years earlier. His writings encouraged and promoted the destruction of synagogues, the confiscation of their property, gross mistreatment and their virtual enslavement. This, of course, was all done to protect the Christians from these evil people (sound familiar?). Now, take Herr Luther's anti-semetic writings and substitute the word "Jew" for "Homosexual" and you end up with the the 21st century diatribe against the gay community by many modern-day evangelicals, as evidenced by writings alone on this discussion board. Folks, the anti-gay sentiment being stoked within the Christian community is NOT Christian. Run from it!!!

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  9:23am

Rachel Posted: Anyone care to explain the difference between aggravated homosexuality and aggravated heterosexuality? Rape is rape.... Rachel... It would appear that in the minds of the homosexual affirming posters, that rape is only wrong if one is heterosexual...

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  9:12am

Ted Hewlett Posted: Surely Christians wherever they are should speak out against both grave immorality and also injustice and lack of mercy….Christians should bear in mind not only the condemnation of sin of the Old Testament but the revelation of mercy and the fulfillment of God's will in a new way revealed in the New Testament: for example in Jesus' dealings with the Samaratin woman at the well and the spirit of the story of his dealing with the woman taken in adultery…. Ted… So the Christian thing to do would be to just say?. “Go and please stop knowingly with malice of forethought murder anyone else by infecting them with HIV?AIDS”…

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MP

December 18, 2009  9:10am

A sad state of affairs. I think evangelicals like Warren are indeed learning some valuable lessons. What in the world is an "encyclical video"? Is Warren now the Pope of evangelicalism? This just sounds silly. What he did was more of the same, using PR to protect and/or project his purpose driven image and its marketing empire. When you try to do God's work on the world's terms, these are the kinds of difficulties that will always emerge. Of course, this is a matter of "theological" wisdom and judgment - something in short supply these days. Too much dependence on PR, human skill and strategy, and not enough dependence on the power and wisdom of the gospel of Jesus Christ crucified. What ever happened to the "evangel" in evangelical? May God have mercy on us, those who should know better.

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  9:01am

Christian Lawyer Posted: Folks, this is the moral equivalent of Kristallnacht for the GLBT community…. cl…. You should be ashamed for even hinting at what you have stated, much less attempting to dishonor the innocents that suffered under Hitler, to the rampaging, out of control, premeditated homosexual murderers who knowingly spread HIV/AIDS, through the raping of women and children.

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  8:54am

ELDV Posted: If the sins with which we struggle were criminalized with the death penalty as the sentence, ….Why should we expect legislation to do what God entrusted to the Gospel-- the saving of souls (Romans 1:16)? … ELDV… Two things… All sinners are under a death sentence… Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die…. And passing a law to prosecute premeditated murderers is not legislating the gospel… It is protecting the citizenry from vicious predators…

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  8:33am

JM Posted: I look forward to Ssempa and Warren's next project to protect traditional marriage in both Uganda and the US, criminalizing divorce... JM... perhaps if you hurry, you can be first in line to volunteer for the cause...

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David Hardy

December 18, 2009  8:31am

Bob Posted: But if we don't resolutely and firmly condemn this bill, non-Christians will quickly point out that God's blood-thirsty followers are pretty much all the same...they all want you dead. And I won't have a valid reply. They're right. And Jesus wept…. Bob… Homosexuals condemn Christians and all things godly and now they are condemning Christians for not jumping to the defense of homosexuals… No matter what Christians do, homosexuals will “quickly point out that God's blood-thirsty followers are pretty much all the same.” You tend to forget that Satan’s minions will always curse the children of God.

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Andy

December 18, 2009  8:23am

The Church is not writing this law - the government of Uganda is. Liberals in the West are being Imperialistic to pass judgement on another country's laws that don't submit to their bias. Bi-sexual conduct is the chief cause of the spead of AIDS in Africa. Uganda seems to have more objective thinking than the "enlightened" in the West.

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http://ketch22.wordpress.com

December 18, 2009  8:03am

As a former "anti-gay" I must say I am surprised that so few Christians understand sin. We all do it... are we going to pass an anti-greed law that says if I am greedy I get life in prison? An anti-pride law? An anti-lust law? As a Christian, I struggle with these sins and often allow them to win... but I am forgiven because I repent. Why aren't we allowing the homosexual the same opportunities? After a sinful encounter with the same sex, shouldn't we be showing them Jesus instead of prison?

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Jason

December 18, 2009  5:52am

Evangelicals in the United States supported a shocking and awful attack on Iraq, a country that was not threatening the US (no WMD have been found), alleging that Iraq was going to attack first. But the US did in fact DO what they accused the other side of being evil enough to do. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people have been killed and millions displaced from their homes or country. Following Peter's logic, the US and evangelicals are under anti-Christian leadership, which is not unreasonable. Evangelicals are now moving in the direction of an 'anything goes' churchianity.

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T.

December 18, 2009  5:38am

the future of reformation, towards people seeing visions and dreaming dreams and not needing to be taught about Christ but will have him etched on their hearts is being hampered by the presence of Gays and Lesbians in the church and their theology being taught. This objection has not got anything to do with civil society which does not concern the church nor has it anything to do with the death penalty which is always wrong because sinners cast the first stone or pull the lever on the gallows. The Spirit is the spirit of life and freedom and does not want death nor condemnation. Why do we either want to kill or be gay when we have Jesus himself, halleluah.

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jesus

December 18, 2009  3:31am

Based on the comments to this and the related article, it seems as if, with her poor choice of titles, Ms. Bailey is once again either misinformed or choosing to mislead the CT readership. But then, are we really surprised??

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Dave N.

December 18, 2009  2:21am

Coming from a country were government-sponsored torture and child kidnapping-slavery are regularly practiced, I don't think Ugandans have any place lecturing the US on ethics and relativism, despite our failings. "They don't understand our ethics in the country of Uganda..." Isn't that the very definition of relativism?

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Peter

December 18, 2009  1:36am

Any group that preaches or teaches that the killing of other human beings is in anyway acceptable is not of Christ. It is, ANTI-CHRIST.

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Ossai

December 18, 2009  1:24am

To people that have forgotten their Bibles and are now preaching their head knowing, it is not surprissing that they are attacking a Nation that are still holding on the truths of the Bible. Please Bishops, pastors, Revs, and Christians read the Bible for your self and hear God for yourself. Someone already said the Bible is very easy to understand but it is those who try to interpret it that makes it difficult. As a defender of the Bible I stand by what it says, Christians should be able to stand for what is morally wrong than trying to defend their attack those that do so. If Jesus Christ would enter must of our Churches today, I believe that he will enter with a stick in his hand and beat off those that has turned his house to dens of thief. Lord help us!

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Susan

December 18, 2009  12:32am

It's the height of irony when the banner ad on this page is a book, entitled, "When a Nation Forgets God" (a book about Christian Germany and the Nazis) and the topic below is mass murder of gay people with Christian support. I encourage everyone to use the Google-Images function and search on "Gott Mit Uns" or God With Us (in English). "Gott Mit Uns" was used on posters and emblazoned on every Nazi belt buckle to give the green light for the holocaust (Jews, Gays, Gypsys, Slavs, Liberals, Intellectuals, etc). Martin Luther's gross anti-semetism also provided additional necessary justification for their extermination plans. Google Luther's book, "The Jews and Their Lies" to read shocking justification for Kristallnacht and worse. Suffice to say, hatred and scapegoating is a very powerful tool to rally the masses. In 1945, we said "NEVER AGAIN". Let's not let power-hungry interests trick us yet again into supporting horrible atrocities in the name of God. Once is more than enough.

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Alan

December 17, 2009  11:48pm

If Ugandans want to express love to each other in alternative ways, that is none of our business. Live and let live or live and let die. Bringing all of these public figures into the debate is simply ridiculous. Rick Warren and Chuck Colson have no bearing on the nature of Uganda's interpretation of homosexuality, and we should avoid any sense of arrogance in thinking that we can hope to dictate the morality of others. We will be responsible to God for our personal choices, not the legislative decisions of other nations, and to posit otherwise is to assume an authority that is not ours to claim.

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edi nachman

December 17, 2009  11:46pm

It is sad when the formesmost spokesman of Christian America ends up defending evil activities which are outrightly condemned in the Bible. It seems that because of the downfall of Christian leaders in America on this issues that the homosexulas have the Amercican Evangelicals in their pocket. I hope this is not so. We should be honouring nations such as Uganda who are holding up the biblical standard. If they are a little too harsh we can encourage then with the understanding that that which Yahuah has call abonimable (i.e homsexuality) or wrong (adultery) remains something we do not accept. Woe to them who call good (laws dealing with wickedness) evil. Woe to them who call evil (homosexual acts, adulterY), evil. If these continue as they are when Yahuah has judged america and she is a third rate land dieing becuase men do with men things unacceptable and all the women are marrying women and all the men marrying men, Uganda and land like it will be the future light of the world in Yah

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Rachel

December 17, 2009  11:02pm

Anyone care to explain the difference between aggravated homosexuality and aggravated heterosexuality? Rape is rape.

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Glenn

December 17, 2009  10:37pm

Bob II's comments were bang on. The uncomfortable truth on homosexuality with an attitude of grace. I couldn't have said it any better.

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Ted Hewlett

December 17, 2009  10:35pm

Surely Christians wherever they are should speak out against both grave immorality and also injustice and lack of mercy. African Christians have commendably spoken out against the perversion of churches blessing same-sex unions in the West, and hopefully they will listen to faithful Christians who speak out against the unChristian harshness against homosexuals manifested in Uganda. Christians should bear in mind not only the condemnation of sin of the Old Testament but the revelation of mercy and the fulfillment of God's will in a new way revealed in the New Testament: for example in Jesus' dealings with the Samaratin woman at the well and the spirit of the story of his dealing with the woman taken in adultery.

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ELDV

December 17, 2009  10:14pm

If the sins with which we struggle were criminalized with the death penalty as the sentence, how would that make us feel? Sin is sin and it condemns, whether the sin by homosexuality or adultery or fornication or cheating or lying or lustful thoughts or gossip or backbiting or evil suspicions and even not showing love, mercy, and grace. Legislation cannot on its own change the heart; that's what the Law taught us. Why should we expect legislation to do what God entrusted to the Gospel-- the saving of souls (Romans 1:16)?

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JM

December 17, 2009  10:02pm

"Lively went to Africa in March [for the 'Seminar on Exposing the Homosexual Agenda,' an anti-gay conference sponsored by the US-supported Ugandan group the Family Life Network], and on April 20, a new bill was drafted. It’s important to know the timing there. Members of parliament talked about the need for a new bill, and we knew that the new bill was being drafted, although it took a long time to come out—October. A lot of it had to do with Lively. If you read the text of the proceedings, some of the things in that bill are direct reflections of what Lively was saying in Uganda: that there is no scientific evidence, that this group is trying to take over world and destroy family values. There’s a lot of traditional family language, and it’s language that Lively brought to Uganda." http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/religiousright/2046/the _anti-gay_highway:_new_report_details_mutually_beneficial_relationship_betw een_us_evangelicals_and_african_antigay_clergy_?page=entire

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Bob II

December 17, 2009  9:59pm

Just a clarification: my previous post starting "Genuine Christianity..." I am a different Bob than the one beginning "Claudia..."

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Bob

December 17, 2009  9:56pm

Genuine Christianity will always be wrestling with law and grace. To jettison either will make shipwreck of one's faith. Our nation's decriminalization of homosexuality has removed any protection from the most vulnerable and allowed predatory homosexuals free license. Many who clamor for the necessity to love homosexuals are indifferent to the fate of the victims of "aggravated" homosexuality. At least in Uganda they are addressing the issue head on; hopefully the dialogue which ensues will result in some tempering of the punitive aspects. But it may be that if the law is allowed its proper role of restraint, to the end of lessening suffering, bondage and death that the result is actually more "loving" than the panicked retreat from Biblical standards characteristic of the western churches and governments.

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JM

December 17, 2009  9:54pm

I look forward to Ssempa and Warren's next project to protect traditional marriage in both Uganda and the US, criminalizing divorce.

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Bob

December 17, 2009  9:46pm

Claudia, to use the Bible, Koran, or any other book to justify genocide and to hide behind "sovereignty" is grossly appalling. Stephen make a good point, are Christians wanting to impose their brand of sharia law just as the Muslims do? Is that really how we want Christians and Christianity to be perceived? I hope not. But if we don't resolutely and firmly condemn this bill, non-Christians will quickly point out that God's blood-thirsty followers are pretty much all the same...they all want you dead. And I won't have a valid reply. They're right. And Jesus wept.

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David Hardy

December 17, 2009  9:42pm

helen Posted: BA Atheist makes more sense than most of the stuff I've read here. In fact he makes my point. Until Christians agree as to the 'truth' there really is no Christianity. It's all individual guesses by a bunch of little 'god's'. Everyone claims he knows what's right, but everyone disagrees with everyone else. You are the people who create honest thinkers who tend to then become B A Atheist! We are a joke to the 'world'- then we claim it's their fault because they reject the 'truth'. What 'truth'? That's why I left Rome and Protestantism years ago..... helen... Christianity is flawed because it is comprised of humans... If a group accepts jesus as the Only begotten Son of the Father... has faith in his righteousness and accepts the Bible as the divinely inspired Word of God... All of the rest is disputable matters... FYI.... There is no honor in quitting and there is no wisdom to be obtained from a quitter...

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Claudia

December 17, 2009  9:32pm

The Bible is very clear on the prohibition of sexual immorality. Jesus was very clear that we are to love the sinner but hate the sin. None of us is without sin, not one, but there is a difference between deliberately choosing to pursue a sinful lifestyle and worse yet, lead others in that sin and someone who is trying to lead a life pleasing to God. While the Ugandan bill indeed seems very harsh, the last time I checked, it is their sovereign country. This is not a matter of food, shelter, clean water etc. This is not a matter of basic human rights. There are many nations which have laws that Christians and other people find extreme but we do not attempt to interfere in their governments. The government required abortion/infanticide of babies after a couple has one child in China is an example. No one is trying to tell China to change their laws. Is it because these babies don't have the international political clout of the gay/lesbian groups?

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helen

December 17, 2009  9:17pm

BA Atheist makes more sense than most of the stuff I've read here. In fact he makes my point. Until Christians agree as to the 'truth' there really is no Christianity. It's all individual guesses by a bunch of little 'god's'. Everyone claims he knows what's right, but everyone disagrees with everyone else. You are the people who create honest thinkers who tend to then become B A Atheist! We are a joke to the 'world'- then we claim it's their fault because they reject the 'truth'. What 'truth'? That's why I left Rome and Protestantism years ago.

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Stephen

December 17, 2009  8:59pm

Fundamentalists of all flavors love their sharia! (Glory! or PBUH!, if the shoe fits, wear it).

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helen

December 17, 2009  8:52pm

We do not harass or persecute murderers or thieves- but we do punish them. It's not the same thing. If a man practices sodomy there must be a fitting punishment. If you think sodomy is okay then I have no conversation with you. Your world-view is radically different from original Christianity. If you reject that you have nothing but your own guesses- and that's not what Christianity is about.

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helen

December 17, 2009  8:44pm

When I read the first couple of comments I see how we have turned Christianity into a game of every body comes up with his own religion. We make decisions based entirely on our personal feelings:"I think this", "I believe that", "Our view is...." Our opinions are established on the most shallow and baseless knowledge of the Christian Faith. I don't say the Bible, because everyone thinks he knows the Bible when in fact he doesn't realize that the individual by himself- or in his cult/denomination- big or small, is only a guess at the truth. Let's not impose on African Christians a chaotic culture of American Christianity that doesn't work in America. We have become soft on sin and want to blame Christ for that. Thank God for a people who still realize the socially destructive effects of the filth of homosexuality. We love murderers and thieves, for example, but they do not go unpunished. As to the severity of the punishment, that's another question. Leave the Africans alone!

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aftab

December 17, 2009  8:40pm

Europe and America have made a mockery of Christianity.

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Tihomir Kukolja

December 17, 2009  8:31pm

Christians may disagree about the legality of gay rights, but no follower of Jesus could agree, privately or publicly, with any harassment or persecution of homosexuals, let alone with the introduction of death sentence, for the reason that those are totally out of the character with Jesus and against anything He taught and practiced. Even if the designers of the questionable legislation want to excuse its roughness on the account of the Old Testament laws and practices, the One who is the Law Incarnate defies any such excuse by broadcasting the true intent of the Law which is to “love your neighbor as yourself”, whoever he or she is. More - http://boldlywalking.blogspot.com/

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john

December 17, 2009  8:14pm

Since when should free-wheeling 'evangelical' sectarians think themselves authorities to be taken seriously by Africans. Frankly, 'Scarlet', I don't pay much attention to them. Who made them 'big shots' in Africa? Personally, I find it offensive when any 'Christians' call Sodomites and homosexuals 'gay'. Who do you think invented that name? When people want to change the way we think they first change the names of the things at issue. Imagine, Christians who want to throw away anything in Scripture they find inconvenient or "God forbid", offensive to sinners. Leave the Africans to interpret the Bible as they choose. After all, isn't that really the 'glory' of being an 'evangelical' sectarian/cultist/denominationalist? In other words until you can agree on all other important issues just mind your own business! You have no credibility with people who know better.

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Charitas

December 17, 2009  5:55pm

Since Americans (even many in churces) as a whole have become rudderless in their libido ethics, they have lost all credibilty in giving advice on this subject.

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Didymus

December 17, 2009  5:54pm

I am against abortion and capital punishment. That said, it is re-affirming that at least one country does not see homosexuality as a "right"! I could never approve of purposeful killing of another human being. But approving of sin kills not just the body but endangers the soul.

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Dan

December 17, 2009  5:22pm

Christians killing homosexual b/c they are homosexual is a little bit like Jesus helping to stone the woman caught in adultery. Somehow, it just doesn't fit the narrative. However, if someone (a heterosexual or a homosexual) knowingly infects someone with HIV, that should call for serious consequences including perhaps the death penalty.

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Julie

December 17, 2009  5:10pm

Haven't Ugandan Christians ever heard of grace? Whatever happened to the New Covenant? This is way beyond legalism - it is an affront to the blood of Christ shed to redeem us from the curse of the law. Yes, homosexual activity is a sin, but to paraphrase the Apostle Paul, what business is it of ours to judge those outside the church? (1 Cor. 5:12)

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Jill Jones

December 17, 2009  3:18pm

'Christians' around the entire world will have the blood of innocent people's lives on their hands if this bill is approved, as it looks to be. If TRUE Christians do not speak out and condemn this legislation on moral and religious grounds, we not only have the blood of innocent people's lives on our hands, we are opening ourselves up for a major attack on Christianity. And for the first time in my life, I seriously question if such an attack is warranted. People who identify Christ as their saviour have let hateful bigots who call themselves Christians but are anything BUT Christians hijack Jesus Christ and ALL that he stood for. We must not be silent and let these people attribute a genocide to Jesus Christ. That is simply terrifying for the future of Christianity, which, by all studies is struggling to survive. This bill is in direct opposition to HIS teachings. May God have mercy on us ALL.

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