Guest / Limited Access /

When California became the first state to ban reparative therapy for minors this fall, the public scrutiny of the treatment drew attention to Exodus International, the nation's largest ex-gay ministry. But Exodus had already stopped promoting ...

Read More

Displaying 1–53 of 53 comments

audrey ruth

January 20, 2013  6:53pm

Pet phone, what of other people who do the same, whatever the bondage had been in their lives? Jesus delivered a man of a number of demons, then warned him not to return to sin, saying it would be worse with him if he did, than it had been before. Freedom IS available in Him. Indeed, without Him we can do nothing. "He whom the Son sets free is free indeed."

Report Abuse

Pat phone

January 17, 2013  3:36am

Claire, if they're a "NEW CREATION", why do most of them revert, or admit no change happened?

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 12, 2012  11:02am

Dan, you put words in GOD's mouth when you say that "God creates people as homosexuals". Where do you get this idea? Not from God's own Word - this is clear. The whole context of God's Word shows that you are mistaken; you have been deceived if you believe that is true. The spirit of homosexuality strikes at the very heart of God's plan and will for all people. This spirit seeks to deceive people into believing a lie which is from the enemy of God, the enemy of all our souls. "Christ Jesus came to destroy ALL the works of the devil" (I John 3:8), of which this is one. He said "[The enemy] comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I have come that you might have LIFE, and that more abundantly." John 10:10 Living in bondage to this (or any other) spirit is not God's best, not God's plan or purpose for people's lives. HE IS ABLE to deliver people of this spirit and lead them into the life of abundance He planned for everyone. It is a tragedy to frustrate His grace and power!

Claire Guest

December 12, 2012  11:01am

Dan, you are also totally mistaken when you say "Salvation does not change one's sexual orientation any more than it changes one's gender." Full salvation as shown in the Scriptures includes deliverance, healing, and restoration. It's not just a "ticket to Heaven" - the salvation Christ Jesus died on the Cross to purchase for us is infinitely greater than that. The Lord tells us this about those who are saved: "If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION. Old things are passed away; behold, ALL things are new." This includes everything in that person's life. You are arguing with God Himself, not Dee or myself or anyone else who stands in agreement with God's Word. Your convoluted thinking is a hindrance to people who need to be free of this bondage, not a help. This unScriptural thinking is part of the problem, is opposed to God's solution. I pray your eyes will be opened to see this, so you can be a fellow laborer with the Lord in His kingdom to effect HIS will on earth.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 12, 2012  11:00am

Dan, as you know, I referenced the Word of God re: that issue. There's no reason to make any more false accusations of me OR change the subject either. One thing is ultra-clear: You are unwilling to deal with the reality of THE subject here from a Biblical standpoint.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 12, 2012  10:53am

@Claire Sorry you don't think that what Paul unambiguously wrote to the Corinthians about women speaking in church is important as written. However, I must admit that the fact you do not doesn't come as a surprise.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 12, 2012  10:31am

Dan, back to the subject at hand: I see you deliberately changed the subject instead of addressing the real and serious Scriptural issues which I raised below. I did not write the Word of God; I am simply a messenger whose life was radically, forever changed by His love and truth. It is not "my interpretation" that GOD's will is for men and women to be heterosexual (and marry each other if He calls them to marry) - that is abundantly clear in His Word. He CREATED men and women that way, this is HIS will, HIS plan, and Christ Jesus confirmed this in Matthew 19. It is YOUR argument which does not hold water. You cannot refute the clear evidence of God's Word concerning this issue, which obviously is why you changed the subject. BTW - I did not quote 1 Corinthians 6. I quoted 2 Corinthians 5:17: "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 12, 2012  10:13am

Dan, you're seeking to compare apples with oranges. But I'll humor you. Before I was a Christian, I didn't even attend church, let alone speak in church. Since I became a Christian, His Word has been my standard of truth. I have not pastored a church. I have ministered with my husband as Aquila and Priscilla did. There is certainly precedent for women to be traveling evangelists as Philip's daughters were (book of Acts). It seems they were single (like Corrie ten Boom, who was also a traveling evangelist), thus were able to devote their entire attention to the ministry which the Lord entrusted to them.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 12, 2012  8:40am

@Claire You have quoted 1 Corinthians 6 to support your interpretation that salvation will change homosexuals into heterosexuals because that is God's preferred plan. Let's go on a bit further in 1 Corinthians to examine this change mechanism that happens upon salvation that is intended to bring things into compliance with God's plan. When you were saved, were you changed from your propensity to violate 1 Corinthians 14:34, or did you continue unchanged? Do you speak in your local church as you do here, or do you remain silent, which is God's plan as revealed by Paul? Did any change take place?

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 11, 2012  1:38pm

@Dee I answered your question "are you saying that God creates people as homosexuals?" in the affirmative. I believe that God is the creator of all people, and that he creates some as heterosexuals and some as homosexuals (just as he creates some male and some female and some both). That is the understanding I have gained by talking with many homosexual Christians who do not remember any other state of being even after salvation. As for your interpretation that "Paul says that someone who is a homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God," I do believe your interpretation is incorrect. Such an interpretation would deny the power of Jesus' blood to be the propitiation for sin. After all, when we stop sinning, we remain sinners in this life, capable of sinning again. Salvation does not change us into beings incapable of sinning again. In the same way, salvation does not change one from being a homosexual, only from the desire to act upon it. In the kingdom, we will all be changed.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 11, 2012  12:26pm

@Dan,again I mistakenly entered a discussion with you. You seem to like to malign not only the argument people make, but also the person. You attack me rather than my argument--a quick lesson in argumentative fallacies would go a long way for you. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but it bothers me when they put words in my mouth. Good luck with your prideful enlightenment. Again, I'm sure it will serve your witness well. Am I to thnk the only community you're worried about being a good witness to is the gay community? (good, but it shouldn't come at the expense of others). But back to what you accused me of. I never said that some people are not born with same sex attraction, or that some people are not born with male and female organs, or that God does not have a plan for them. Show me where I said that. But you ARE saying that God desire is to make people like this, right? So the way people are born always shows us God's perfect plan for creation? So what about birth defects?

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 11, 2012  8:29am

@Dee Yes, I am saying that some people are born with same-sex preferences programmed into their DNA (you do believe in DNA. right?). There are also people born with both male and female sexual organs. There are some people born with no sexual desires. And the list goes on. There is great variety in God's human creation, including human sexuality, and God has a plan for all of them, not just heterosexuals. Unfortunately, the church is not as inclusive as God, as you demonstrate. However, whatever state one is born in, it is the choices one makes that condemn him or her to live in a state of sin after the age of accountability, not what they are. Of course, there are those created heterosexual who choose to forsake their created state and act homosexual, and Paul rightly condemns that kind of conduct in his writings (e.g., see Romans 1). As for celibate homosexuals not lining up with Scripture, the most you can say is that it does not line up with your interpretation of Scripture.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 10, 2012  11:58pm

@ Dan con't--I understand what you're saying about evangelicals focusing mostly on homosexuality, and that it has hurt many gay people. I've seen gay people mistreated; this should never happen. But the Bible is clear that any unrepentant sin isn't consistent with the life of a Christian (which is what the Gay Christian Movement is trying to change). It might not be sexuality, but what other "natural orientations" should we accept? What else should we tell people they don't have to be delivered from? I know I often have a strong orientation towards idolatry. But finding a group that tells me to stay in that place doesn't do me any good. If I desire to remain there, then yes I should question the genuiness of my salvation. I think that is what Claire was trying to say, not that she holds the keys to the gates of heaven (that was an expression; I'm not revealing my theology on heaven!) and that she gets to say that all gay people go to hell.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 10, 2012  11:47pm

@ Dan, are you saying that God creates people as homosexuals? In other words, his plan is for some to be gay? Your answer would clarify a lot in this discussion. I can agree that after people are saved they may still have same-sex attractions, and that they should not be treated any differently than any others. But your understanding seems to be different than Scripture. Paul says that someone who remains a homosexual will not "inherit the kingdom of God." He also goes so far as to say that those saved in Corinth used to be/do such things but now they don't (homosexuals included--1 Cor 6:9-11). I know some translations translate v. 9 with "practice homosexuality," but there's no verb in the Greek, and "practice" could just as easilty be said about any of the other sins mentioned in the list. So I know about the argument "as long as they don't practice" it that people use, but this argument that being a celebate homosexual is God's ideal for a person just doesn't line up with Scripture.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 10, 2012  6:00pm

@Claire Are you saying that a homosexual cannot be saved and remain a homosexual? If so, you are seriously misinformed about the salvation offered through the blood of Jesus. Salvation does not change one's sexual orientation any more than it changes one's gender.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 10, 2012  5:12pm

Dee gets it. Same-sex attraction is not God's will, not God's plan or purpose for people's lives. He has made that clear in His Word, both OT and NT. HE IS ABLE to deliver people of this spirit, and lead them into the abundant life which Christ Jesus died to provide. It is true that any sin separates man from God. It is also true that the Lord has shown us in His Word that sexual sin incurs serious consequences. The Body of Christ has not brought this sin to the fore - activists have done this for years in an attempt to make it acceptable, thus normalize it, to the American public in general. They've used the media quite successfully in this. It would be foolish if the church pretended this issue did not exist, as so many people have fallen prey to this spirit already. Since this affects people's eternal destiny, the church would be irresponsibly remiss to ignore the very real ramifications of indifference. People's lives literally hang in the balance.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 09, 2012  6:15pm

@Dee If you read my beginning comment, and those that followed, I am saying that the church in general acts as if being homosexual is a sin, and a greater sin than many others at that. Given the time and attention paid to homosexuality by many evangelicals, especially in the secular political arena, one could get the idea that is is one of the two most egregious sins (abortion being the other) possible. That is the point I am making, and I hope that we agree that such an attitude is incorrect.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 09, 2012  5:01pm

@ Dan, what is your point? Who on here is saying that homosexuality is a greater sin than any other? No one! If you think that is what I am saying, I feel sorry for you because in no way shape or form did I say or even imply that. I have several Christian friends who struggle with same-sex attraction, and in no way do I treat them any differently than my other friends who struggle with other sins. I agree that the church has often had a bad witness to homosexuals, but that doesn't mean that you go the other way and condone the sin. If that is not what you are saying, I don't know who you are arguing with and what your point is? Condemning only homosexuals is hardly what anyone on here is saying we should do. Tell me somewhere where I said we should do just that. Anyway I thought I could have a real conversation without someone talking over my head making points against stuff that I did not even say. Good luck with that--that should get you far with your witness.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 09, 2012  4:27pm

@Dee If I thought that one category of sin put Jesus on the cross more than another, then I would have to agree with you. However, that is not what the Bible teaches. One type of sin may be more abhorent to you and others than another type, but all types of sin are equally abhorent to God. It is only us humans who make distinctions. Unfortunately, the witness to homosexuals is diminished by the attitude of the church. Many do not ever hear that God loves them as they are. All they hear is the condemnation for what they are assumed to be, or for who they are (and remain) when called by God to his salvation. Churches are full of celibate homosexuals who suffer and serve in silence, loyal to God despite being thought of as defective or second best by their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I know quite a few men and women in that category in churches here in Atlanta. They live with their thorn in the flesh, strong in their faithfulness, and I believe that God honors their sacrifice.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 09, 2012  12:14pm

@ Dan and Claire, I think part of what Claire is saying is that homosexuality (same-sex attraction) isn't God's desire. Therefore, whether people are born or choose to be homosexual isn't the issue. Reality: it's not what God wants a person's sexual orientation (term??) to be. If this isn't his plan, then by implication, it's part of the sinful world we live in. I would say the same to someone who is biologically prone (again, what word should I use?) to alcoholism/addictions. Just because someone is pre-disposed to act or think that way doesn't mean it is acceptable in God's eyes. Likewise, people should not be going around telling people who have homosexual thoughts/desires (word?) that it isn't something that God wants to deliver them from. What I find sad in much of the discussion (here, Alan Chambers, etc) is that many Christians are trying to find ways for homosexuals to come as close as they can to the line of sin rather than telling them to flee as far away from it as possible.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 09, 2012  11:07am

@Claire I have never said that same-sex sex is not a sin. However, I do maintain that you cannot show in the Scriptures that being homosexual (without being sexually active) is a sin. Homosexuals, like heterosexuals, are not condemned by what they are sexually, only by what prohibited sex acts they perform. The only thing you will find condemned in Scripture is the prohibited sex acts. By not commenting on it, Jesus never went beyond what Scripture says about it. Of course, if you have extra revelation, please share it with us. As for David's comment, I take it as written and interpret it in its normal sense, without qualifications which you add but that David himself did not reveal, and, since it is preserved in the Bible, I take it as being an example of edification for all of us today, not just for David.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 09, 2012  11:06am

Dan, with all due respect, it seems you don't comprehend the scope of this issue. For one thing, it seems you limit Christ Jesus to a 33-year earthly lifetime, BUT He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." The Pharisees understood exactly what this meant, which is why they hated Him and tried to kill Him several times before He went to the Cross. The Jews (to whom Jesus was sent) KNEW the OT Law well; they KNEW that same-gender sex was an abomination in God's sight, so Jesus did not NEED to address this issue when He preached to and taught them. When Jesus sent Saul/Paul to the Gentiles, however, they did NOT know this; they did not have the advantage of that solid moral foundation. So Paul DID have to address this issue (and others) which Jews already understood. You also take David's statement out of context. He did not say that was true of ALL men or ALL men/women. It was HIS experience because his wife (King Saul's daughter) was a faithless wife and Jonathan was a faithful friend.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 09, 2012  10:59am

(cont'd) @Dan: I do not disagree with you that if a person has such feelings and does not act on them (including not having lustful desires in the heart) that there is no sin. The point is, this is not God's best, not God's plan or purpose for people's lives. HE IS ABLE to deliver people of this (and any other) spirit, and lead them into the life of abundance He desires for everyone.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 08, 2012  4:45pm

@Claire What you have trouble understanding is that being homosexual is not a sin. I don't think you can accept that, even though our Lord never condemned it. You don't seem to like the idea that homosexuals exist, but God (Jesus) does not seem to have a problem with it or else he would have said something about it. He didn't. He never condoned same-sex sex, of course, but he never condemned anyone for being homosexual. As far as Scripture is concerned, it is only same-sex sexual actions that are condemned as sin, not same-sex love. Love between men without the sexual component is actually described by David as higher than that between a man and woman (2 Samuel 1:23-27).

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 08, 2012  10:52am

Christ Jesus said, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Mt. 5:28 (Cross references Job 31:1; Prov. 6:25; 2 Sam. 11:2) God created men and women to marry each other, enjoy sex with each other. Adultery IS a sin. Same-gender sex is not God's plan or His will; it is unnatural, an aberration. ANY sin separates man from the fellowship God wants to have with him, which Christ Jesus died on the Cross to restore - HE IS ABLE to deliver people of this (and any other) spirit. The spirit of homosexuality strikes at the very heart of God's plan and purpose for men and women - Romans 1 shows the insidious way it affects the hearts and minds of those in bondage to it. This spirit has caused widespread deception in our nation, even in the church where some have fallen prey to it, even drawing no distinction between God's definition of marriage and the aberration which has now been legalized in some states.

Report Abuse

Jon Trott

December 08, 2012  10:43am

Claire, I'm quoting something you wrote to Dan and asking clarification: "Dan, temptation is not equal to sin and I never said it was - obviously, lust in the heart is not just temptation; Christ Jesus said it is sin." That *sounds* like you're saying that if a man has sexual thoughts about another man, he's sinning. That's not necessarily true. If I have sexual thoughts about another woman than my wife am I sinning? Yes.... *If* I allow the initial thoughts to take root. Remember Luther's oft-quoted line? "You can't stop birds from flying over your head but you can stop them from nesting in your hair." That's temptation (the birds). I'm walking down the street. An attractive woman passes me. An errant thought starts. What happens next is key. Do I reject the thought, turning my attention to (one example) my wife or something else? I do not then sin. Likewise the guy who has a thought about another guy. What he does next is the key. This is Discipleship 101 stuff.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 08, 2012  10:39am

Dan, temptation is not equal to sin and I never said it was - obviously, lust in the heart is not just temptation; Christ Jesus said it is sin. Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, but He overcame the devil with the written Word of God. The Scriptures are clear that adultery is not the same as homosexual acts; same-gender sex is deemed "abomination", an even stronger term than sin. ANY sin separates man from the fellowship God wants to have with him, which Christ Jesus died on the Cross to restore - HE IS ABLE to deliver people of this (and any other) spirit. The spirit of homosexuality strikes at the very heart of God's plan and purpose for men and women - Romans 1 shows the insidious way it affects the hearts and minds of those in bondage to it. This spirit has caused widespread deception in our nation, even in the church where some have fallen prey to it, even drawing no distinction between God's definition of marriage and the aberration which has now been legalized in some states.

Report Abuse

Jon Trott

December 08, 2012  10:20am

I think Alan Chambers may be onto something. Homosexuality is not treated as "special" or "more sinful" sin by Scripture. Homosexual acts are sinful. So is lying. So is greed. So (most of all?) is pride (which keeps us from humility, and so from God, more than any other sin). Temptation is universal. We each, however, have our own peculiar set of temptations. All of them, if given into, lead to sin which leads to spiritual shipwreck (death, according to James). Christian discipleship, and not "becoming heterosexual," should be the focus here. Are we following Christ and living by His Words and Example? *IF* that is what Alan is saying, and I think it is, it is nothing less than straight 100% Gospel. If on the other hand Alan or anyone else is saying we can live however we want to and remain believers, their battle is with Scripture. Antinomianism is the fancy word for that. "Without the law." J. I. Packer wrote that even it is better than legalism. But best is balance.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 08, 2012  8:28am

@Claire As we all know, Jesus was tempted in all ways (Hebrews 4:15), and that includes the temptation to have homosexual sex. I guess you would say that Jesus needed to be "set free," as you put it.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 08, 2012  8:15am

@Claire You seem to be unaware that being homosexual (sexual atraction only to same sex) is not a choice and is not a sin, no more or less so than being heterosexual. People do not make a conscious choice to be heterosexual, same goes for homosexuals that I know. On the other hand, choosing to engage in homosexual or heterosexual sexual behavior is a choice, whether one is heterosexual or homosexual. The Scriptures are quite plain that homosexual behavior is a sin, as is adultery. It is unfortunately easier to get a Christian crowd stirred up about the topic of homosexuality than it is to get them stirred up about discussing adultery and other "normal"(heterosexual) sexual sins. Politicians have caught on to this fact, and politics in church, as you point out, have greatly influenced the church's attitude and negative witness to homosexuals. As for reparative therapy, I consider it cruel and inhumane, akin to waterboarding and other means of torture.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 07, 2012  10:35pm

Dee, I appreciate your kind words and also wonder what Alan Chambers is trying to achieve with the new direction he is taking. Because I know what my friends went through before they were set free, and how many people the Lord has set free through their faithful witness, it is frightening to consider the implications of Chambers' disheartening decision. IMHO, the church WOULD be remiss if Christians chose NOT to address this issue, but instead swept it under the rug, picking and choosing to address other things. This would effectively forfeit the faithful witness the Lord intends the Body of Christ to be in this nation, to people who are in such bondage. Dan says "just being homosexual is not a sin at all", but this presupposes that such a person never has any lustful thoughts toward another person of the same gender, also seems to presume that such a person does not need to be set free. Christ Jesus said that lust in the heart is the same as actually committing sexual sin itself.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 07, 2012  9:59pm

Claire, well put! Your post's message is why I am a bit perplexed with what Alan Chambers is trying to achieve with the new direction he is taking Exodus Int.. He is himeslf a person who has been set free from the slavery of homosexuality, yet he always seems to be unwilling to say that this can be a reality for others. I realize that there is a need for the church to not pick and choose which sins they condemn, but I find that Chambers is trying to "make peace" with the Gay Christian Movement at the expense of what Christ came to do--set us free from those very things. Anyway, thanks again for your well articulated words.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 07, 2012  9:17pm

I have dear friends who were once in bondage to homosexuality (their phrase - see Ephesians 2). Their testimony is that Christ Jesus delivered them and made them normal, the way He had meant them to be all along. They have been married for more than 20 years, have two children, and are very active in ministry to people who are as they once were. The spirit of homosexuality strikes at the very heart of God's plan and purpose for people for whom Jesus died. This is a serious thing, not to be taken lightly, not to be excused because other sins exist. Some may say adultery is more harmful to families (and I agree it is definitely harmful), but their experience and POV is that homosexuality is even more harmful than adultery. When any professed Christian(s), whether pastor, denomination, or individual, seeks to excuse or justify this aberration in any way, for any reason, this contradiction of God's Word and plan only makes things worse, not better.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 07, 2012  6:51pm

@Dan Bruce, I'm not sure how on earth I made your point. I was saying that sexual immorality of any kind was not tolerated by anyone in any church that I ever attended--male or female. I am not saying that it didn't exist, but any time it came to attention of the church, it was appropriately disciplined. Furthermore, the only description/message of a "manly" man that I have ever heard of was a man who fit God's description of what a husband was like, not the popular view of having a haram. So in review, I did not make your point.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 07, 2012  5:06pm

I agree with Dee. I've attended many churches in my life, but not even one has ever winked at adultery or viewed it as a "manly" thing AT ALL. I realize there are churches and even denominations who have departed from the Word of God on MANY issues, including this one. What has brought homosexual behavior to the forefront has been activists who have made this their agenda for years. They've successfully used the media to brainwash many Americans into accepting it as an acceptable alternative lifestyle, but that doesn't change the Word and will of God for men and women in any way. The tragedy of this is that eternal destinies are at stake.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 07, 2012  9:57am

@Dee The non-Christian world has already won the battle with regards to adultery. It's tacitly accepted even in church circles, recognized as a sin but swept under the rug of "lesser" sin. That's why Christians don't focus on adultery in the intense way they focus on homosexual conduct, which is considered incorrectly to be a "greater" sin (keeping in mind that just being homosexual is not a sin at all). Adultery is even winked at in many church settings as a "manly" thing. So, you have made my point. Both adultery and homosexual conduct are condemned and have no place in the church, in the same way they were prohibited in ancient Israel. However, adultery is a much more widespread problem than homosexual conduct among believers in the church, even if it doesn't get the attention it deserves. It's not an either-or situation. Both sins should be discussed from the pulpit and in church circles, probably in the same proportion and in the same manner that our Lord discussed them.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 06, 2012  10:41pm

@Dan Bruce, there very well may be an imbalance in the Church concerning its focus on homosexuality. But as i mentioned earlier, that is not just the "fault" of Christians--the non-Christian world has had a huge part to play in focusing on that particular behavior more than others like adultery. In every generation, there are sins that seem to take priority because the non-Christian world is fighting us on them trying to make us stop saying they are sin. Homosexuality is no different. Also, I guess I've been sheltered because I have never been in a church where men were allowed to commit adultery because "men will be men." I'm not saying that doesn't exist, but I don't believe it is the norm. Adultery, like any othe sin, is often not visible for all to see in the church because people often hide their sins.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 06, 2012  10:13pm

Here is the context of the Scripture in Acts 1: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. (con't below)

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 06, 2012  10:10pm

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 06, 2012  4:18pm

@Hugh Change in orientation and change in behavior are two different things. In Rom. 1:27, Paul is talking about men who have given up the natural use of the woman for sex with men. The normal understanding of that verse would indicate that these men were straight/bisexual men who once preferred sex with women and decided instead to have prohibited sex with men. Research has shown that there is a wide range of same-sex orientation and practice among men. Some are homosexual from a young age, some come to awareness of their same-sex orientation during puberty, some men have experimented once or twice, some straight men choose to engage in same-sex activities, some gays stay celibate. Even though I am not gay, I have been hit upon by quite a few "straight" married Christian men, especially when I was young. One even had 12 children! So, statistics with regard to orientation change are probably meaningless unless all the parameters about the initial orientation and behavior are defined.

Report Abuse

Hugh Wetmore

December 06, 2012  1:59pm

If "only" 15% of homosexuals undergoing therapy experience a change in orientation, then I am very encouraged. Farrar in his book "Finishing Strong" claims that only 10% of conversions last to the end of life. So 15% is a good result, and should encourage the goal of seeking such orientation conversions. The world needs specialist organisations who can assist in breaking the habits of homosexual addiction, together with other ministries that help those enslaved by various sinful practices. It's not one or the other. It's both-and. Helping those who have presented themselves to obey sinful urges to present themselves to obey righteousness is a core Christian ministry (Romans 6:16,17 ESV). Can anyone supply me with an International Directory of Orientation-Change ministries? wetmore1937@gmail.com

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 05, 2012  10:05pm

@Dee I'm not advocating that preaching against the sin of homosexual behavior (and that is a different thing than being homosexual, which is not a sin) be omitted in favor of preaching against the sin of adultery. I just find the over-emphasis (perhaps fascination is a better word) on homosexuality, which is generally not a major problem in the church, a little strange when there is almost a tacit acceptance of adultery, especially among Christian men, the old "men will be men" attitude often excusing somewhat the seriousness of the sin. Just compare the effort of Christians directed toward opposing homosexuality with the effort toward opposing adultery. The imbalance is striking ... and harmful as a witness, since adultery is so harmful to the institution of marriage and the cohesiveness of families.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 05, 2012  8:58pm

@Dan Bruce, you're preaching to the choir, but shouldn't homosexuality be included as one of those things that, as you say, "the church needs to clean up its own house before trying to clean up society." I'm not downplaying the seriousness of adultery of course, but that doesn't make homosexuality less of a sin because it is not ranked #1 on your list. Certainly Alan Chambers running around telling unrepentent homosexuals (or any other kind of unrepentent sin) who claim to be Christians that "everything is fine with your behaviour" is not the solution to cleaning up our house from the sin of adultery.

Report Abuse

Claire Guest

December 05, 2012  8:16pm

Dan, it is true that adultery is rampant in the general culture today, including the Body of Christ. I believe this began when pastors/preachers began to compromise the clear Word of God about that issue. Now that professed Christians and even denominations are also compromising the clear Word of God re: homosexual behavior, the slippery slope continues toward greater and greater depravity. When people profess they have become children of God, this incurs a responsibility on their behalf definitely comparable to men and women being faithful to their marriage vows. Responsibility to other people can never be greater than, certainly should not take precedence over, our responsibility to God. Making excuses for, and/or trying to justify, one sin because other sin exists is antithetical to God's plan and purpose for all our lives.

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 05, 2012  12:00pm

@Dee The church needs to clean up its own house before trying to clean up society. Otherwise, the rest of society rightly calls us hypocrites, and our witness is tremendously devalued. The Bible is quite clear that neither adultery nor homosexual conduct are permitted in the church, but it is only adultery that breaks an oath given before God and usually given quite publicly, with newspaper announcements, showers, receptions, and wedding pageants in a church facility. Adultery is the greatest threat to the institution of marriage, and to the stability of families, both in the church and in society.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 05, 2012  11:43am

@Dan Bruce, I agree with most of your assessment. There are plenty more sins out there that are not as taboo in the Church, and we seem to turn a blind more toward those ones. I'm not sure, however, that it should be an either/or issue though--which one we should focus on. All sins should be dealt with in the church, not just a few choice ones like homosexuality, adultery, etc. It must also be kept in mind that one of the reasons Christians seem to be only focusing on homosexuality at the expense of others is because that is where the non-Christian world is battling us the most. They are not questioning our stance on adultery, and calling those who are against adultery bigots. So, even though the church does not always respond appropriately on the issue of homesexuality, I would hesitate before saying that it is all the result of the Church doing or not doing something (not necesarily saying that is what you believe).

Report Abuse

Dan Bruce

December 05, 2012  10:36am

I wish Christians would give more attention to adultery than they give to homosexuality. Adultery, which is condemned in the Bible (and, for Christians, involves breaking an oath taken before God) is much more widespread among Christians, and it does far more harm to marriages and families. Yet, adultery receives scant attention compared to the ruckus raised about homonsexuality. I think a lot of the reticence to condemn adultery is because it is so widespread among Christians, and pews would be empty if all the adulterers got offended and left. Perhaps reparative therapy should be tested on adulterers first?

Report Abuse

Pop Seal

December 05, 2012  6:44am

A national medical journal listed homosexuality under "mental disorders" not long ago. Now, without any 'new evidence' and after a few years of political activism and reprobate congressmen jumping on their band wagon, if I object to homo' crapola, there's something wrong with me? "I don't think so, Scooter"! The plumb line of God's righteousness doesn't swing for Barney Frank and his temproary husband.

Report Abuse

Dee McDonald

December 05, 2012  12:50am

I find it interesting (in a bad way) and disconcerting that a ministry called "Exodus" is now calling for people to remain in their personal "Egypt". The salvific message associated with the Exodus was that God brought the people out of bondage/slavery--Egypt. Watching Chambers trip over his words in the GCM interview he did was hard to watch. He seemed to not want to distance himself from the GCM position of acceptance of "gay Christianity". As many have already said, reparative therapy seems to be a side issue for those who are leaving Exodus International. I'm not sure I would want to be under the leadership of Chambers either the way he appears to be taking this ministry. Reparative therapy practices may not be appropriate (I don't really know much about them except the horror stories--looking at porn to turn you straight, etc.), but there's a difference between correcting a bad practice and that of condoning and normalizing sin, which is the direction Chambers appears to be going.

Report Abuse

Jeff Rudloff

December 04, 2012  11:42pm

I am disappointed the CT has once again missed the point. As Dr. Gagnon points out, the main issue here certainly is not the validity of reparative therapy. The idea that a homosexual lifestyle lived out shamelessly and without repentance is an acceptable state by which to enter into Heaven is - and that is a standard that it seems CT has been very reluctant to endorse. To "n t": Those of us who studied psychology in the 70's were taught the basics of your ideas - the homosexual "making up" for a lack of something in himself through the relationship with the other - as the dominant theory of homosexual practice, particularly in the Christian community but also in the secular academy as well. I am guessing that you are too young to have encountered it before, since it went WAY out of favor as the idea of homosexuality being a "condition" requiring treatment became the norm. Making this case to secular people won't go far; it's been "discredited" and left in the dust.

Report Abuse

James Aist

December 04, 2012  5:51pm

The doctrinal error of gay theology is that it presents “a different gospel”, the gay gospel. This gospel holds that one can be a Christian, never turn away from homosexual behavior, and still enjoy eternity in heaven with Jesus. Now any gospel that is not faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible is the gospel of “a different Jesus”. Let’s see what the Bible has to say about a “different gospel” and a “different Jesus”: “But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4). More at http://rethinkingtheology.com/2012/07/15/gay-theology-did-god-really-say-yo u-must-not/

Report Abuse

n t

December 04, 2012  5:01pm

The following essay argues against Christians with homosexual inclinations from engaging in homosexuality. It does so without referencing "divine command theory"--namely, Christians who have such inclinations should not engage them simply because God said so. What my essay attempts to do is explain the why behind the command. And it does so regardless of whether people with homosexual inclinations can change their orientation. I'd really like to hear some feedback on it. The essay makes sense to me, at least. I think it represents a much needed explanation which Christians should be using to defend our stance. Here's the essay: http://cognitiveparfait.wordpress.com/category/homosexuality/

Report Abuse

Robert GAGNON

December 04, 2012  1:30pm

I’m mortified. This news item on Exodus makes it sound like the main issue in the divide from Exodus was the view of change therapy. It's not. It's the fact that Alan Chambers is in the business of propagating a doctrine of cheap grace, assuring homosexually active, self-professed Christians that they are "going to heaven" irrespective of repentance. The news story mentions this only as an aside in a single sentence late in the story and otherwise focuses almost entirely on views of reparative therapy. Jeff Buchanan and John Warren wrote a piece in the Christian Post explaining their departure and the emphasis is squarely on the rebuttal of Alan's cheap grace theology. See http://www.christianpost.com/news/a-call-to-a-responsible-grace-82451/ For my views start with http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/julyweb-only/alan-chambers-accused -of-antinomian-theology.html. Prof. Dr. Robert Gagnon, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, Board member of the Restored Hope Network