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Christianity Today, October, 2007 |

Moving to 'Acceptance'

Mainline Lutheran assembly urges bishops not to discipline gay ministers.

Lisa Parro | posted 9/12/2007 08:56AM

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The resolution, adopted on August 11 at the 5 million-member denomination's biennial assembly, seems to contradict a church policy that prohibits ministers from engaging in homosexual sexual relations. ...

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Sheryl

Posted: September 18, 2007 12:40 PM


Thank you Jay for wording that very nicely.

the gardener

Posted: September 14, 2007 8:34 PM

is it not all greed driven? we have always lived by principles-biblical; but it seems we have come to an age where anything goes. however, though we remove the restraints and live as though we have no one to answer to, the realtiy is there is the "GOD." we will each of us answer to him. in the gospel of Romans in the Holy Bible, it states this fact. in addition it also states that we each of us are to be subject to the "Higher Power".

Jude	Posted: September 14, 2007 2:31 PM

I was at the Mpls Area Synod Convention as a delegate and I can say that my spirit was extremely saddened, to say the very least, when it was said that Scripture is no longer to be considered our authority but rather, could become our "idol". It is about time that we, as mere human beings, quit applying our reasoning to Scripture and let Scripture apply to our humanistic reasoning. Have we come so far to allow our society be our "idol" that we would continue to follow it rather than a God who loves us and cares for us? God does not discipline us for doing wrong. We have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God disciplines us to bring us back to wholeness in Jesus Christ.

rev mike

Posted: September 14, 2007 1:24 PM

For Jim , roger, and others who use terms like "unbiblical" "apostasy" "evangelical" please take a moment to read and review "A Generous Orthodoxy" by Brian McLaren. I am trusting you will be more careful with your negative labels and stereotyping against those brothers and sisters who happen to disagree with your interpretation of scripture, and use of these words. It closes debate before it can even begin. blessings

Loni Morris

Posted: September 13, 2007 7:51 PM

There is no way that any church body should be able to meddle in the love life of individuals . It makes no difference in they are clergy, laypeople, church workers or ordinary folk. There is nothing in the Bible (any version) that states being gay or lesbian is a sin. Read any interpretation in any language and you will find nothing that states this as a suggestion or law. Thankfully the Lutheran and Episcopal churches are adult enough to accept other as they are and not in need of repair. Fr.Morris

Rita	Posted: September 13, 2007 6:55 PM


Amen, Jay.

Jay	Posted: September 13, 2007 10:32 AM

It is surprising to me that our spiritual leaders today are so willing to ignore scripture. God is very plain on this subject (Romans 1:24-32), Galations 5:16-26, and who could overlook Sodom and Gomorrah? (Genesis 19:1-13+). I wish our "spiritual leaders" would spend more time in God's Holy Word, and less time debating how people FEEL about these things because how we feel is no matter at all. That said, I still must caution that it's not our job to judge unbelievers, however believers are a different story. Not only are we to be accountable to each other, but even more so are our leaders to be accountable. If a leader will not repent sin (of any kind) his leadership should be taken from him. It's really not that diffucult. To God be all the Glory, Amen?

Bob Gottschalk

Posted: September 13, 2007 10:27 AM

When I grew up sex was not mentioned in my house until we had catecism at age 11 or 12. This was given by our Lutheran Pastor Reverend Redelfs. He was a man of great principle and character. I am glad that his message was clear, adultery was any misuse of the natural desires of man to woman even to the extent of enticing oneself with sexual illustrations or even thoughts that were oriented to the sexual nature of ones thoughts. So we have gone a long way from that to Britney Spears in underwear and next who knows. Where will it stop? Will we have to filter our programs so that programs that are games or such have commercials of a leading sexual nature. Is there no honorable drive that mankind follows that can be appealed to by commercials. What next, a commedian calling Jesus names and involving Him in desecrating acts. Lord help us not to become the cities destroyed in scripture. Sodom and Gomorah. May the church leaders follow the scripture and its rules of moraity. *****

Casey Hough

Posted: September 13, 2007 9:50 AM


Here is my response at http://ncmin.com/archives/140

concerned for the church

Posted: September 13, 2007 8:34 AM

I tend to view it pretty simply ... God's Word has a clear stand on this issue. Regardless of what the sin is (and let's not kid ourselves - His Word is also very clear that homosexuality is just as sinful as Adultery, Fornication, Stealing, Murder, etc, etc) it needs to be identified (removed from secrecy), confessed and dealt with in order to remove its power over the one involved with it. This by no means reduces the value of the individual caught up in it. In fact, just the opposite. God tells us that he disciplines us because He loves us. God values us ... we are precious to Him even when we are doing or have done something He does not approve of. However, if we knowingly continue practicing something He has already spoken on, we are at risk of missing His blessings upon us. One of those blessings is spiritual protection and without this, we are at real risk of becoming spiritually wounded which will lead to further issues - spiritually and psychologically and physically.

Anna	Posted: September 12, 2007 9:01 PM

These people doing the voting are influenced by the secular world and they have moved themselves into positions of power within the Churches. Its the 1960s attitude of "if it feels good do it, you're a free person", "..Be happy". Well, you get the picture. So, if the homosexual can't be disciplined because one church of non-Christians voted to keep their "girls/devils" in power, than the alcoholic can continue to beat their kids and wives when they're drunk which is all the time, and the adult in the house can do sex with their kids because why should they be required to change their habits if the homosexuals don't have to. So, now, families who don't want their kids associated with or being influenced by the "savory" have to go elsewhere. I thought the Church's idea was to be strong enough to say no to the devil, apparently it's hard to say no if it feels so good to say yes. Well, keep demanding lower and lower standards and morals, our family has already left that Church anyway.

Anna	Posted: September 12, 2007 9:00 PM

George T.

Posted: September 12, 2007 8:28 PM


Homosexuality is BANNED in the Bible---God's ultimate word and law. Otherwise we shall engage in an open ended discussion about relative morality. Is this God's will? If so let anybody come up front and throw the first stone.

Roger Morris

Posted: September 12, 2007 6:57 PM


The pressure to yield to vocal lobby groups on issues such as homosexuality within Christianity is leading denominations such as the Episcopalians, Lutherans and (in Australia) Anglicans and the Uniting Church down the slippery slope of liberalism and apostacy. They will soon become irrelevant and will, one day, be made to answer for their decisions.

Bill	Posted: September 12, 2007 5:49 PM

The argument often used for homosexuals is that's just the way they are, or they were born that way. If it is ok for them to resume that lifestyle for those reasons, then I guess it's ok for me to start having affairs with other women. Even though I have a beautiful wife with a knockout body, I still notice other women too. However, I have to make a choice to do what's right!! Therefore, I have always remained faithful to my wife and will continue to do so. I can't let the lusts that I was BORN with to get in the way. We are fallen creatures which takes us to the core of the gospel. We all need the power of God in our lives to live righteously. None of us are above the homosexual with our morality, but none of us should come up with excuses for doing what God says is wrong. Pedaphiles could use the same arguments gays use, but it's still wrong. It's sad churches are accepting sin so easily especially when we know the power of God can transform these lives even though hard.

T	Posted: September 12, 2007 4:44 PM

Even heterosexual union in fully lawful marriage for just "fun" and "recreation" is cutting it fine. Never mind the use of the body for homosexual lust, which is forbidden every time it is mentioned in the scriptures. At best married sex - when not for the wonderful act of procreation - which is its rightful use - is to stop someone burning and itching with lust. God welcomes sex in marriage for the sake of bringing godly children into the world. But sex as part of a clinging and over-erotic mindset brings people into the realm of the enemy whose trap is to draw people into lawlessness and poor spiritual discipline. Sex is a joy when conception is welcomed and children are conceived and a family is made real in its full godly sense. But physical erotic sex is treading close to the line. Homosexual lust treads over that line into the realm of ungodly and can never serve God's purposes ever!

John G. Pierce

Posted: September 12, 2007 2:10 PM

To John: Read what Chris wrote. He is correct. The Bible in no way allows for any practice of homosexuality whatsoever. It doesn't matter that it isn't a "major focus." It doesn't need to be. It was not an issue among Israelites, so one wouldn't expect it to be mentioned often. To Ken: Your former choir director could practice his musical gift quite easily by repenting of his homosexuality. It is NOT inborn. Many have successfully changed their "orientation" through the power of Christ, though admittedly some continue to struggle (just as many of us struggle with different sin areas). As to the article: Praise God for the faithfulness of Word Alone & other renewal groups in the ELCA.

Ken	Posted: September 12, 2007 1:51 PM

The choir director at my church 'came out' some time ago. A fairly high number of parishioners left the church as a result. This man has TREMENDOUS, and I believe God given, musical talent. I’m totally convinced that that same God would be quite irritated if he didn’t use it. Sometimes I wonder if people think this is a catch able disease. I think others can’t see the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia, which is a totally different problem.

Patrick

Posted: September 12, 2007 12:38 PM

Churches have an obligation to enforce their bylaws, and it is reasonable to expect that denominations would discipline clergy or churches that flout those bylaws (as Ray noted). The issue here is not so much whether some churches allow homosexual clergy, but whether some denominations prohibit certain things but do not enforce the prohibition. It is a question not so much of the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality as much as of the relationship between pastor, church and denomination. Some denominations are strong, centralized and hierarchical while others are more loosely structured and allow their churches a certain degree of flexibility to deviate from established denominational policies.

Jim	Posted: September 12, 2007 12:21 PM

Honestly, I have serious questions about the "Evangelical Conviction" of Christianity Today if we see this as a debate for the evangelical community. The ELCA in general is not known for its evangelical conviction. I have no problem debating this question in the wider ecumenical realm, but I certainly hope Christianity Today doesn't consider this a valid debate for the evangelical community at large. If it does, it's time to find a term other than "evangelical" to describe those who take a serious view on the authority of Scripture.

Ray	Posted: September 12, 2007 12:06 PM

Church bodies that have in their bylaws or constitution that pastors must be celibate or married heterosexually with fidelity are obligated to discipline pastors (or not ordain) pastors who violate that rule. They also should discipline churches that tolerate such behavior in their pastors. In NT lists of sins, homosexual behavior is clearly listed. We often forget that gossip is also a listed sin, which indicates either the seriousness of gossip, or the relative seriousness of homosexual behavior. As sins, such behaviors are forgivable when repented of, and the Christian sincerely tries to go another way. But forgiveness does not mean acceptance. For pastors, the standard is higher, no matter how often we would like to say a pastor is no different than a layperson. A pastor is given a leadership role and must attempt to model Christian behavior, not flaunt behavior regarded as sin. Ongoing unrepentant behavior should lead to discipline and expulsion as necessary, including pastors.

John	Posted: September 12, 2007 11:32 AM

This is a complicated issue. While Paul and the occassional OT passage condemn homosexuality, it is clearly not a major focus of the Bible, and fails to appear in the Ten Commandments. Meanwhile, modern science is pointing more and more towards the conclusion that homosexuality is an inborn trait, and unlike say pedophilia, since it can be practiced in a non-damaging way, why condemn it? Conversely, homosexuality in practice is usually associated with multiple and often anonymous partners. Certainly that is to be condemned. The question is can homosexuality and monogamy be made compatable? If so, I see no reason to discipline those who practice it. But men who leave their wives for their lovers, or meet in bathrooms, are surely to be condemned. I think the church needs to focus on chastity and monogomy regardless of gender as opposed to focusing on the gender of the couples involved.

Chris

Posted: September 12, 2007 11:08 AM

Homosexuality is a sin, period. They should not even be debating this issue. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for such their wickedness, including lots of homosexuality. Romans 1 specifies that they people have exchanged that which is natural for that which is unnatural. Paul continually lists homosexuality in lists of sin, such as lying, murder, adultery. The Lutheran church has forgotten the scripture. Those who do not repent of their sin are destined for Hell.

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