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Christianity Today, May (Web-only), 2008 |

Emergent's New Christians and the Young and Restless Reformed

Tony Jones and Collin Hansen find connections as they discuss each other's books and movements.

Collin Hansen and Tony Jones | posted 5/01/2008 09:30AM

The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier
By Tony Jones
Jossey-Bass, March 2008
288 pp., $22.95

Young, Restless, Reformed: A Journalist's Journey with the New Calvinists By: Collin ...

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jrmd32

Posted: May 06, 2008 10:21 PM


It's healthy for the Church to have several, different "movements" occurring. The Word will survive through it all...just like it has always done.

jd	Posted: May 05, 2008 2:11 PM


Having read all three episodes, I have to ask: What did the emergent people actually say of any substance? Not much. Hot air rises, and so do their empty phrases. It is defintiely postmodern, but certainly lacks and redeeming value. Could be that CT has nothing more to offer than pap?

James Reid Ross

Posted: May 04, 2008 2:47 AM

Very interested in this conversation too mainly interested about any movement of the Holy Spirit in the Reformed church member of a PCUSA congreation a body of Christ we need the Holy Spirit to work in revitalizing our denomination. According to the Evangelical dictionary of Theology a Presbyterian minister was part of the earliest reimergence of the Holy Spirit in the early days. I have often think that when one becomes blessed in the Spirit they often seek out congregations or denominations that are known to be Spirit led. I believe this weakens the Body of Christ unless you are ostracized by your church being salt and light is what we are about. Never should one exault themselves above other by the blessing of the Holy Spirit. As the apostle Paul said "Ye who are spiritual should restore them" led me to believe that all are not blessed the same way Spiritually. My prayer is that we should have evangelist in PCUSA that minister in the Gifts in the Reformed Tradition.

The G

Posted: May 03, 2008 11:33 PM

"Let God be true and every man a liar." That includes Calvin, the Emergents, and Azusa Street. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Return to linguist excellence. How language works should determine the meaning of what God has spoken. The present gimmicks will NEVER last. Calvinism renders the cross unnecessary and is thus blasphemous! For the Word of God to say we are to make a choice and God has already determined we will rather than foreknown is stupid. God fore ordained that His church would be holy. He didn't fore ordain individuals capriciously. That's not Biblical grace. Pentecostalism is manipulative religious witchcraft. Supernatural gifts were given by the laying on of the Apostles hands. And they are dead. The Word of God is the more Surer information we need. You can depend on it. You can't depend on "prophets" like Jimmy, Benny, and Joel.

Pr.bill borch LtCol

Posted: May 02, 2008 9:05 PM

If you love Chaos and Anarchy, and the truth of Christ is a sort of spectator sport this stuff is great. If the implications of your beliefs are too boring to pursue then this can be really entertaining. Anybody keeping score, by the way? I can see now how you miss out on a lot of fun if you take theology seriously. This new generation finally got it right: just go with the flow. You really don't have to know anything- just share the first thing that comes to mind. What the heck was I thinking! All those years of college, seminaries, graduate schools, study, preaching, teaching. Man, what a waste of time! And to think all I had to do was be "cool" and pick up some jargon and pretend I knew what I was talking about! forestphilosopher.blogtoolkit.com

Michele C

Posted: May 02, 2008 7:03 PM


To Shannon Lewis: You said you share "the Emergent community's desire to be liberated from the rigid dogmatism of today's modern church?" What exactly does that mean? Do you mean from the belief that the Bible tells us how we should live as Christians?

Dan Ra

Posted: May 02, 2008 3:01 PM


I'm proud of CT engaging in this kind of dialogue. Reformed Evangelicals need to stop portraying Emergents as washy liberals as much as Emergents need to stop portraying Reformed Evangelicals as modern-day pharisees (I admit I do the latter). Not to say there isn't those kinds within each "camp." But I'm glad CT is allowing both groups to healthily validate each other in Christian unity. Amen!

Roland Kamps

Posted: May 02, 2008 10:51 AM


I think the book "A History of Western Theology" by Post gives some historical perspective that we can all use.

Leroy

Posted: May 02, 2008 9:45 AM

Interesting conversation rife with confusion. Seems the emergent church has become of a movement or denomination, polemical, reactionary and misguided. The megachurch movement is dead. The old guard evangelicals who were cooped by the right in their lust for power and influence (Dobson; Fawell) are dying off while the Evangelical Left (Wallis;Campolo) are lining up for their own long waited 15 minutes in November. And Calvinism is rearing its head in the morass of uncertainty. Obviously, but perhaps not to them, Tony/Collin need to develop a fuller appreciation for the nuances of postmodernism, which is far more a critique of modernism and the deconstruction of controlling narratives or meta-histories, than a substitute philosophy upon which to build. And they desperately need to understand that theology is the tail wagging the dog. You can proof text your Calvinism all you want, but it remains a man-made system reflecting the mind of its author' far more than the biblical text.

Dave T

Posted: May 02, 2008 2:36 AM

I share the Emergent belief that the Bible is the truth but not the whole truth. I also believe that history, culture, and experience are also important factors in determining the divine truth of God. I believe that prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit also play a large part in this discovery. In the end, I do agree that we cannot completely understand Godly truths with our finite abilities. My fear is that some Chrisitians may use this as an excuse to accept any sort of behavior they wish under the guise of intellectual ambiguity. However, God has given us some awesome gifts in order to understand both Himself and His intent for our lives. We have a responsibility to try to figure out His direction and to act upon them. I truly share the Emergent community's desire to liberated from the rigid dogmatism of today's modern church. I have decided to use that liberation to guide me towards living a more Godly, virtuous life, despite my limitations and failings.

Ben - Australia :D

Posted: May 02, 2008 12:50 AM


@ Roger: "don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out" - classic. My sister saw it on a church pinboard a number years ago. It's great. As a fellow "GenXer" I'm also finding myself to be "theologically conservative, but contextually flexible". This is a great conversation, and I'm anticipating reading the rest of it!

Roger - Australia

Posted: May 01, 2008 6:45 PM

As a GenXer, I consider myself theologically conservative, but contextually flexible. I don't see a problem with the Emergent Church 'conversation' as long as the postmodern paradigm of 'What is truth and can we really be sure of it?' isn't used as an excuse for age-old disobedience to God and his precepts set out in Scripture. I sometimes fear that The Enemy cleverly uses postmodern uncertainties as a foot in the door to ask 'Did God really say...?'. Emergent church conversationists should guard themselves against the schemes of the Enemy and the natural rebellion of their own flesh, not to justify disobedience and frank apostacy in the name of postmodern paradigms of thought. Like the saying goes - don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out !!

Bob Sherwood

Posted: May 01, 2008 5:52 PM

I appreciate and applaud the friendly tone of this conversation. I've been listening in on this "emergent" conversation and have noticed that the tone is becoming increasingly combative of late. It was nice to see a civil approach, while recognizing differences. As to content, both individuals are at poles from where I feel comfortable. I recently heard a podcast of Mark Driscoll preach on predestination, and while I applaud his passion, I simply cannot fathom a God who chooses some and not others. Calvin was brilliant, but I can't subscribe to his conclusions. I do, however, understand why many people do, and so regarding Tony's concluding question, I would say "yes." Some people simply find the confidence and structure of Calvinism comforting. Personally, I seem to be caught in the middle. I believe in the centrality of scripture, but find a new home in the ambiguity of how to apply it practically.

Pastor Jonathan Privett

Posted: May 01, 2008 3:42 PM

As a Wesleyan committed to Scripture and the appropriate use of reason, experience and tradition to express the message of Scripture, I am certainly not willing to embrace either a Emergent approach to the world or church as well as the categories that Calvinism embraces. However, I will not be arrogant to assume Wesley had it right. I will listen in on the conversation with one caveat: show me from the Scripture whatever I must change to share Jesus with my world and I will gladly do it. Whatever theological principle chosen I only insist that Jesus be lifted up, not the arrogance or pride of a new fad that sells books. Wesley wanted to be known as a man of one book. If your books lead me to a deeper understanding of the Word of God, then bless you. If your books lead me or anyone astray, then mercy on you. I keep hearing the word 'conversation' to the point I grow weary of it: Jesus had plenty of those with the Devil. My question is simply is Christ preached?

Robert

Posted: May 01, 2008 3:32 PM

Quite odd to use globalization, pluralism, postmodernism ininterchangeably. Postmodernism is a philosophical worldview by which we understand the world w/ epistemological overtones. Globalization is a phenomenon resulting from the technological transformation of production/knowledge. Pluralism is the the result of the diversification of culture. These terms are interrelated, but not interchanageable. As NTWright points out postmodernism is a critique of modernism/enlightenment thinking, presenting Christians not w/ a weighstation, but an opportunity to move to beyond empiricism to a new epistemology rooted in love, or a way of knowing that transcends scientific method. Unfortunately it seems certain aspects of Emergent have been bamboozled into thinking postmodernism is an adequate substitute for modernism. Reversion to Calvinism is an unfortunate reaction to postmodernism, a misguided search for certainty in an uncertain world, a world in which Calvin would not be a Calvinist

Tom Fisher, La Paz Bolivia

Posted: May 01, 2008 3:05 PM


Yeah, this is what we need: dialogue. There's been too much talking about... complaining about... reporting about... each other, and not nearly enough talking with each other. Bravo to all involved!

Shannon Lewis

Posted: May 01, 2008 2:09 PM


As a former 'Emergent' (in their earliest days), and an Evangelical (Missional, Reformed, & Charismatic) I'm sure I will find much to agree on with both authors, but I do agree - this is a necessary conversation for our time & place in history. Thanks for pursuing it. I'm looking forward to future installments!

Shannon Lewis

Posted: May 01, 2008 2:08 PM


As a former 'Emergent' (in their earliest days), and an Evangelical (Missional, Reformed, & Charismatic) I'm sure I will find much to agree on with both authors, but I do agree - this is a necessary conversation for our time & place in history. Thanks for pursuing it. I'm looking forward to future installments!

Howard Pepper

Posted: May 01, 2008 12:25 PM

As a former Evangelical minister and apologist, I enjoy "listening in" on this conversation -- good format and idea. I also was influenced by and participated some in Campus Crusade evangelism in college. To Tony's concluding question, a definite "Yes!" Natural ways of thinking, being in the world do play into our theologies and postures, more than most of us would acknowledge. And conceptions of authority, always changing as they are, will change yet further with "postmodernism," for which I am glad. This will include the authority and inspiration of Scripture. From PhD studies in the 90s and much personal digging since, I've realized just how many layers of trusted authority have been put down to bring us (for me, formerly) to the current sense of divine scriptural authority that conservative Christians share, at base. A much closer look at the documents of the late first to the early fourth century is necessary to see how "orthodoxy" and its authority only gradually emerged.

Scott Lamb

Posted: May 01, 2008 12:12 PM

Great start guys. Regarding the epistemology... Reading from Packer's classic "What did the Cross achieve" last night yielded this gem: "It must be stressed that the mystery is in each case the reality itself, as distinct from anything in our comprehension of it, and as distinct therefore from our theories, problems, affirmations, and denials about it. What makes it a mystery is that creatures like ourselves can comprehend it only in part. To say this does not open the door to skepticism, for our knowledge of divine realities (like our knowledge of each other) is genuine knowledge expressed in notions which, so far as they go, are true. But it does close the door against rationalism, in the sense of theorizing that claims to explain with finality any aspect of God's way of existing and working. And with that, it alerts us to the fact that the presence in our theology of unsolved problems is not necessarily a reflection on the truth or adequacy of our thoughts."

bluazul

Posted: May 01, 2008 11:57 AM


Excellent conversation! I'm definitely on the side of Tony Jones (well, I'm part of an emerging church and support Emergent... :) ), but this is a conversation that definitely needs to happen and continue between Christians. Bravo!

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