Tony Jones and Collin Hansen find connections as they discuss each other's books and movements.
Collin Hansen and Tony Jones | posted 5/05/2008 09:10AM
Tony Jones is the national coordinator of Emergent Village and author of The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier. Collin Hansen is editor-at-large of Christianity Today and author of ...
I've continued to stay in the institutional church, though not a member, for my young sons so they can have fellowship, corporate worship and training. I have recently begun to think this is a mistake, and last night purchased Tony's book-never seen it before- and just found this web dialogue today. 20 years experience with Reformed Presbyterianism, left for another conservative denomination. Bottom line; all of the institutional church seems to be compromised and really does not have a strong redeeming effect on our culture. Somehow the radical Jesus Christ is going to have to find an incarnation or I see no stopping the national and global deterioration that is growing at an unbelievable pace. Radical still means radical I think, so it will be looked down on and persecuted by the establishment; the establishment has too much of worldly value to protect. The spiritual progress we need will only come at a serious cost. Do the Emergents believe and accept this?
charles Alexander
Posted: May 06, 2008 6:56 PM
Labels. Labels. Labels. No wonder spiritually we can't see the forest for the trees -- each tree trying to be a little taller -- each tree trying to offer more in the way of shelter -- each tree trying to woo the sweetest singing birds. So many label trees, no wonder the sunshine fails to get through.
Pr.bill borch LtCol.USAR
Posted: May 06, 2008 6:26 PM
The "angst" comes through. Sixty-five? Try 73. So, yes, I understand. Yesterday I posted on my blog the story of the woman who opened her feather pillow in a gale-storm. Yep, never got her feathers back. The tragedy is they were carefully and lovingly collected for the express purpose of being together. A few years ago this reality drove me "nuts" as an Evangelical (Reformed) pastor. But it still doesn't seem to matter to most to whom I speak. Emergent, etc. is what you'll have when the "church" is an amorphous theory. "Anything goes", as the lady sings. I've noticed about kids, etc., you get what you tolerate. And now that you have no choice it'll unravel ad infinitum; there's nothing you can do about it. It's the meaning of "priesthood of believers", According Jacques Barzun, everyone ministered to himself. forestphilosopher.blogtoolkit.com (till Sunday, then ......blogspot.com
Leroy
Posted: May 06, 2008 3:37 PM
As evidenced in this third obviously "bogus" email dialogue btw Tony/Collin designed to sell some books, Emergent offers a hollow and quite naive post-modern version of the faith, while Young Reformers offer a hollow and slightly less naive gloss on Calvinism. The central problem with both is the same; they superimpose a philosophical/theological grid on top of the biblical text and read their prejudices, preconceptions and points of view into their reading of that text and their interpretation of the Christian faith. Let me suggest that we jettison the trappings of something new, and return our focus to the biblical text understood within its historical context and eschew the interpretive grid superimposed thereon throughout history from Augustine, to Aquinas, to Luther, to Calvin to Emergent and whatever new new thing the young turks among us decide to dream up next.
Jonathan Switzer
Posted: May 06, 2008 3:08 PM
Who put together this poll? Do you really think emergent or reformed are the only two important movements right now? Look at your poll results. Over 50% of your responders don't fit your worldview here.
Larry
Posted: May 06, 2008 1:58 PM
Dean,
isn't that what we wanted when we were younger?
Chris Wellman
Posted: May 05, 2008 9:18 PM
I appreciate Dean's observation. Though I'm not quite 65 (still stuck at 32), I've been saddened to notice a fierce agism in many contemporary churches I've attended. Often it seems to stem from a seemingly worthy goal of "reaching the next generation." But I have yet to hear that backed up with a Scripture reference. It would be fine to set sights on a particular generation IF they had been left out up to now. But to put the vast majority of a church's efforts into wooing a particular age group seems to have no biblical precedent. Does God care more for young people than old? So whenever someone tells me how cool their church is, if I visit and see that everyone is young, or that everyone is white, or that everyone is [fill in the blank], I say that church has a long way to go to reach maturity. I only hope that the new reformed and emergent groups work this goal of heavenly diversity into their plans for revolutionizing the church.
Doug Drysdale
Posted: May 05, 2008 7:25 PM
Just curious--are there any Arminian emergents?
Chris Cottingham
Posted: May 05, 2008 5:30 PM
Probably most Christians I've met, self definitely included, are extremely arrogant. We still teach humility as an ideal and a fruit of the Spirit. All Christians are saved sinners. The ideals are still important to state. It'd be more fruitful imo, Patrick, to comment on emergent thoughts about certainty than to state that some of the emergent folks you've met were arrogant. That's surely true and should be addressed individually, but doesn't reflect one way or the other on the movement's ideas. Emergent wariness of certitude may be self-defeating, but no more so than a doctrine of total depravity, right? We're finite beings trying to "get" the Infinite while looking through a glass darkly. We've received the Spirit and revelation, but one of the things revealed is that God's ways are not ours. We know only in part. Humility about what we know is needed as much as certainty about Who we know. Dean - sorry for your reception, that's not been my experience. Try again elsewhere!
Dean
Posted: May 05, 2008 4:11 PM
One sad aspect regarding both of these movements/conversations is the way we older evangelicals are shunned. At 65 and having been involved with Christian colleges and ministries for 48 years, I have learned a lot and feel that I have also kept up to date with the times. I'm even a former hyper-conservative who has become an avid creation-care advocate who has voted Democratic from time to time. Yet most of my efforts to become involved in the emergent movement have run up against a stonewall of silence. I think many of us feel that our contributions are both unwanted and perceived to be unneeded. So why older folks are dropping out of church does not simply have to do with music or worship styles. Young leadership seems to not give a rip about us. They have the answers and they know how to do it, thank you. "We'll all be one in Glory, but for now let us hip young ones handle it, okay?"
Patrick Dennis
Posted: May 05, 2008 3:22 PM
I agree with DJ. To say that I am humble and others are not is a little contradictory. Some of the Emergents that I have met are extremely arrogant.
Teecha
Posted: May 05, 2008 2:03 PM
Hey I have an idea! Lets start a "Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever movement" Probably not cool, hip enough to capture the imagination of boomers, generation x, y z or q
D. J.
Posted: May 05, 2008 1:10 PM
There are a couple of things that bother me about Mr. Jones' thoughts. One is that claims of humility are inherently suspect. How does one legitimately make a claim to humility? Isn't this a bit self-defeating? The second is that although it may be true that Emergents are not necessarily theological relativists, when in "humility" someone is hesitant to even clearly articulate the Gospel itself so as not to be perceived as having a "non-humble" certitude (which I have seen in writing) then it does seem to give some genuine credence to "the old slippery-slope" reaction to this movement. (By the way, I thought "movement" was a description that was shunned in favor of "conversation." I'm glad to see that the Emergent Church is finally being acknowledged as a movement.)
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