All Comments for: Denominational Diagnostics | Christianity Today

Free Newsletters:

RSS Feeds |

Audio |

Twitter

Home > 2008 > November

Christianity Today, November, 2008 |

Denominational Diagnostics

What I look for to find a healthy church.

Philip Yancey | posted 11/19/2008 08:52AM

This past year my wife and I conducted an experiment. We decided to go through the Yellow Pages under "Churches" and visit each one listed in our local phone book. Although we live in a small town, we ...

[Reader Reviews]

Average User Rating:

Rate and Comment on this article

Displaying 1 - 25 of 89 comments.

Page: 1 2 3 4

Show All

Roger

Posted: December 02, 2008 2:32 PM


Very good! Its the same in Brazil where I grow up and in Germany where I live now.

Lou	Posted: November 29, 2008 8:52 AM


Here's a more traditional (and better) list of things to look for in a church: Faithful preaching of the Word of God, proper administration of baptism and the Lord's Supper, and church discipline exercised in accordance with the Scriptures.

Joshua Cookingham

Posted: November 28, 2008 11:33 AM


I wasn't going to comment, but now I almost feel forced, lol. Yes, the Gospel is the prime mission of the Church. However, the Apostle Paul was also clear that Joy is an essential part of living by the Spirit, not somberness. Also, He was clear that believers should relate well to one another. One of the biggest signs of sin is disunity.

Anair

Posted: November 27, 2008 11:35 PM


Some of the churches that appear in the first five minutes to have the most "aliveness" are just putting on a show and are not Christ-centered but socializing-centered. Some that appear somber and having less "aliveness" are really getting it. The reality of the gospel should make one somber as well as joyful. Not one or the other.

Barth

Posted: November 26, 2008 9:54 AM

You can't judge a book by its cover. One needs to see and experience a church quantitatively (over a long period of time) and qualitatively (by engaging in meaningful relationships with people) in order to make the best possible diagnosis of a congregation. Even though theology was not a factor in the diagnosis here the honest truth is that this is very rarely an issue most people consider when joining a church. I guess this is because most people don't have the tools needed in order to make that kind of decision. Sadly all three of Yancy's qualities exist in your typical Kingdom Hall (Unity, Diversity and Mission) or at least based on their definition. Based on this article me thinks that the pendulum swing of church history in the 21st century seems to be moving away from the intellectual and towards the experiential.

Marc	Posted: November 26, 2008 7:38 AM

I think this is a very nice column (in contrary to some other respondents). I guess some have missed the point. This column is short, and propably not meant to give a full ecclesiology. Rather he uses a more sociological point of view, which is very interesting. It is a fact that there are a lot of denominations. Alistar McGrath once called the situation in my country (The Netherlands, or Holland, in West Europa, for those americans whose geography ends at the atlantic ocean ;-) a repeating fracture. It's nice to see Yancey's efforts to investigate the situation by himself, rather then repeating what others might say (I think this happens a lot). Respondent Chris thinks Yancey was looking for a "feel good" church. I may be blind, but where can I read this in the article? G. Fisher wants to focus on biblical truth. Of course, that's important: but, as we all know, there are differences of opinion in some matters (baptism, predestination). It would a bit stupid to claim our own truth.

Chris

Posted: November 25, 2008 3:34 PM


Well, this is maybe one of the most shallow articles I have ever read. Hope he finds the perfect 'feel good' church. I want one that is alive and grounded in Christ.

Stephen

Posted: November 25, 2008 2:33 PM

With all due respect to Mr. Yancy, this article is very sad. More evidence that the modern church has lost its theological roots. What makes a church "alive" is the faithful preaching of the gospel and solid, biblical truth. This is what transforms lives, and what causes people to respond with love for others, with a heart for missions, etc. While diversity is certainly fine, this does not define a a church as being "healthy." Unity is always desired, but often times there must be disunity to preserve biblical doctrine, and the presence of such disunity does NOT indicate a lack of health, but could certainly be indicative of the opposite. As for missions? Again, the presence of a fat missions budget MIGHT be an indicator of a healthy church, but it also just might represent a church body that is trapped in works salvation with a desire to ease its collective conscience through giving. Paul tells us to preach Christ and Him crucified...the real key to a healthy church.

Kathleen Hooks (Registered User)

Posted: November 25, 2008 2:03 PM

I love Philip Yancey. For a Church of Christ pastor, he is surprisingly open minded and non-legalistic (which has NOT been my experience with others from this denomination who have told me I am not really saved unless I have been baptized in THEIR church and who wouldn't allow me to take communion). He is also humble. His books and his work have truly blessed me. To the point: I think this is a great article and that the criteria he listed are excellent indicators of church health. Diversity, in particular, of race, gender, social class, age, etc is exactly what the Body of Christ is all about.

Wes W

Posted: November 25, 2008 1:26 PM

This article underscores the problem which threatens the Evangelical movement. Yancey's criteria aside, what makes a church "alive" (or even Christian in the first place) is its fidelity to the command to preach the Gospel and to make disciples. It is very easy today, even in Phil's old home town, to find lots of "diversity, unity and mission" but very difficult to find a body committed to Christ. If the truth of the objective, historical fact of the Gospel isn't present, preached and understood as the body's primary focus and activity, the effort may feel good but not be "Christian" at all. Dr. Michael Horton's new book "Christless Christianity" should be read and digested by anyone who is tempted to follow Mr. Yancey's well meaning - but never-the-less unBiblical - advice.

Daniel Townsend

Posted: November 25, 2008 12:14 PM


The thing that grabbed me about this article is the number of churches in his town. My wife and i live in a relatively "small" town too--about 25,000. But I would estimate that there are at least a couple of hundred churches in our Mississippi town. I guess this really is the "Bible Belt."

Megan

Posted: November 25, 2008 12:04 PM

The part about diversity has always been a big factor for me. Even when I was younger if I walked into a church that was all young people or all old people, I felt something must be wrong. As G Fisher mentions, doctrine is a factor, but I personally think it's overemphasized. I grew up in a community where there were a lot of religious cults. The first approach a cult uses is to isolate its members from outsiders, who might challenge the inerrancy of cult doctrine. A church that, as Yancey mentions, has no mission beyond its parking lot, raises red flags for me.

Jacquelyn

Posted: November 25, 2008 10:13 AM

This article focuses on the superficial, outward appearance of a church. What about the heart? We must never forget or overlook Biblical truth. Diversity, unity, and mission are needed to be blessed; however, far more important is being grounded on sound Biblical truth. So many denominations and churches teach only doctrine "approved" by their denomination, much of which cannot be supported Biblical but was passed down from generation to generation through man-made traditions. Our Lord Jesus warned us about false teachings and replacing His commandments which those made by mere sinful men. (Mark 7:8; Matthew 7:22-24) A congregation or church may have the "right" diversity, "right" unity, and "right" mission drive, but if it lacks the "right" teachings... Biblical truth ...then it is not the right place for a sincere follower of Christ. God's Word is the only foundation I will stand on. As my Lord said: "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32)

Anonymous

Posted: November 25, 2008 1:38 AM

Following on from Francisco's comment about who and who was not visited, Yancey's article does not mention if his survey covered Roman Catholics or not. Did he or didn't he? If he had entered a church of the catholic tradition, he is unlikey to have found much foyer banter... and this would not have indicated anything of the "life" of the congregants, because the people of God gather to worship God first and foremost. But then, were the local RCs advertising in the Yellow Pages? More clarity please, Mr. Yancey, and a little more theological depth for what has the makings of an interesting article... did the last 2,000 words get edited out? - John Ruffle, London, UK

Sean OK

Posted: November 24, 2008 3:22 PM

If the author had visited the meeting place of the so called fringe group Jehovah's Witnesses she is likely to have found a warm, diversified, friendly, Bible centered, conservative, well mannered, close knitt, family oriented, gregarious, God loving, law abiding, unpretentious, clean, humble, knowlegeable, kind, helpful, faithful, peaceful, meek, sheeplike, united, cheerful and happy group. It is only just that fools end up in churches where they meet up with persons like themselves, confused, self righteous, sinful, shallow and filled with a spirit that does not originate with God. That is exactly why homosexuals are taking over your churches and why priest are molesting rampantly. Burn Babylon, Burn.

Dr. Kenn Gangel, Tarpon Springs, FL

Posted: November 24, 2008 12:25 PM

Phil Yancey, one of my favorite CT authors, lost his way upon his plunge into the confusing world of "Denominational Diagnotics." Whereas many evangelical churches need both more unity and more diversity, those two qualities alone hardly qualify a church as biblical. It's as though Phil got side-tracked and ended the article in the middle, forgetting to speak of biblical preaching, efforts in evangelism, commitment to missions, and all those crucial elements that have made congregations biblical since the days of Paul.

Saddly dissapointed

Posted: November 24, 2008 11:03 AM


Wow. Diversity, Unity, and Mission. What makes a church alive is it's recognition and understanding of the Gospel! Pretty much any group can have these three "aliveness" factors and go straight to h__. It's only our recognition of what the gospel is that truely makes us alive and sets us apart from everyone else in the world. I'm sorry Yancy- you missed the boat entirely with this article.

michael

Posted: November 24, 2008 4:26 AM


these comments are very superficial and general in nature. no detailed insight from the Bible.

chris

Posted: November 23, 2008 10:44 PM

Robert, who is to say that just because a church has and uses the vices that are available to them today, that they are somehow not pastors. The last time I checked, the Lord was in control and was the only one able to make that distinction. The fact that many of us participate in a service enjoying those comfortable seats does not make it unsightly to God. Anything that gives reverance to Jesus is acceptable and pleasing to Him. Let us stop judging and do our individual parts while we are on this earth. The Lord will do the judging and even in that day it will definitely not be a time to say I told you so for with that type of spirit, you just might be in the line to depart from him.

Anonymous

Posted: November 23, 2008 5:30 PM


Interesting article. Here is our 'Thought' on "Playing Church" http://www.grovebaptist.co.uk/thought/tftm0908.htm

Jeff - Oregon

Posted: November 23, 2008 3:14 PM


Interesting article. After completing a home church "search" with my wife about a year ago, many things in this article paralleled our experiences, and I found myself nodding my head while reading. One other factor was one we described as "alive". Sadly, many churches are not.

John	Posted: November 23, 2008 7:55 AM

I would like to submit that experiments are precisley what they are, experiments. Just because you enter into an experiment dosen't mean your always going to get it right sometimes, a fact apparently unaccounted for by most posters on this article. Is there really anything wrong with trying new things, even if they are bound to get publiclly scrutinized? As for JW'S. Well, observe... Fringe: a social group holding marginal or extreme views; taken from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn JW'S beliefs Jesus never claimed equality with God and thus is not part of a Trinity. The dead are conscious of nothing. In the future, God through Jesus will resurrect the dead. Jehovah's Witnesses do not use religious symbols, such as the cross, in their worship (so much for "the old rugged cross") taken from http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/index.htm Seems pretty extreme to me. There was nothing in Yancey's article that suggested he thought JW'S were uncrhistian, just a bit extreme.

Ephrem Hagos

Posted: November 23, 2008 7:30 AM


Had our churches shared the same unique quality of "one Gospel of divine origin" (Gal. 1: 6-12), --the sole factor that should matter but is excluded even from Yancey's "qualities of a healthy church", denominations would not feature as significantly as they do!

capn kirk

Posted: November 22, 2008 9:13 PM

I am struck and heartened by your use of Archbishop William Temple, an Anglican, in the period of WW II. Many times I am convicted when I do not sense a reaching out in a parish with the good news in action which you have translated into mission. What is our theology of ecumenicity, of seeking unity? Can the many varities of Christian church get beyond structures and tradition so that we get beyond the "scandal of the separation of Christians"" Brother Roger of Taize. How has education and catechesis broken down that we do not seek to respect and leaan from the other Christians around the world who have inculturated the gospel in a way that is different from our culture?

Sue	Posted: November 22, 2008 6:37 PM


Something very important was missing from the church comparisons. Where is the teaching of the gospel? The church is to proclaim the eternal gospel. This is where Christians pass the gospel from one generation to the next.

Page: 1 2 3 4

E-mail this page

Write CT

Print this article

Post a comment