All Comments for: Tiptoeing through TULIP | Christianity Today

Free Newsletters:

RSS Feeds |

Audio |

Twitter

Home > 2009 > April

Christianity Today, April, 2009 |

Tiptoeing through TULIP

Layoff allegations reveal Calvinism tensions at Baptist seminary.

Jim Jones | posted 3/10/2009 12:01PM

Commotion arose in February over reports that Calvinists teaching at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) in Fort Worth, Texas, might be in danger of losing their jobs.

Pastor Wade Burleson ...

[Reader Reviews]

Average User Rating:

Rate and Comment on this article

Displaying 1 - 25 of 69 comments.

Page: 1 2 3

Show All

Anonymous

Posted: March 22, 2009 6:55 AM

Heresy? Wow that's pretty extreme! I have seen examples of heresy in my life and Calvinism is about as far from that as one can get. When dealing with the subject of "limited atonement" we like to put our own human sensibilities on God because there is no way that God can be that "unfair" when it comes to who gets into heaven. If you cannot accept "limited atonement" then you have to agree with the idea that hell is filled with people that Christ died for. If Jesus "died once for all" all who? You have limited the power of God to save. If the atonement is not limited to those who are "elected" then you are saying that it is my strength as an evangelist and the lost's desire to "seek God" are what is important in salvation. Ephesians says salvation is a gift from God, NOT BY WORKS... What is being argued is Arminianism and that is NOT God honoring. Calvinism doesn't hinder evangelism, it strengthens it. God's words save not my the strength of my delivery.

S. RICHARD

Posted: March 21, 2009 11:30 PM

These problems will continue in the Body of Christ until our day of redemption. The Bible teaches that Christ has died for our sins and not man nor his theological views. Limited atonemnet or unlimited atonement will not change the fact that Christ is the only Way to Heaven. We can argue over calvinism when we really need to understand that all issues related to salvation have to deal with calvinism.

Dave	Posted: March 20, 2009 12:00 PM

Men who are much greater thinkers than most of us, have spent most of their lives wrestling with these ideas and could not come to any solid conclusion. I lump all of these things into a catogory I call the ism's "protestantism, catholisism, calvanism, armininism, lutheranism, pentacostalism" presbyterianism, methodism, baptism, and on and on the list goes......all of the ism's issues have something in common, they are all what someone thinks the bible says about God, rather than who God actually is. So rather than focusing on God, we focus on what someone or some group says about God. It would be better if we would draw up close to God and Live!

Johann

Posted: March 19, 2009 7:11 AM


Baptist and Calvinist "theologies" are both man-made heresies that can be dated to specific years in history. Why are we even arguing about this? Instead of twisting Scripture to justify man-made ideas, just study what the Church has always believed, everywhere and by everyone. I guarantee that it won't be what the Calvinists or Baptists believed.

Dr. James Willingham

Posted: March 18, 2009 10:22 PM

It seems rather clear that Dr. Patterson would have to fire two rather noted ministers in history. One would be Mr. Spurgeon who emphatically denied general atonement, that he could under no circumstances buy the idea that Jesus blood would not redeem the person for whom it was shed. Dr. Patterson would also have to fire the Lord Jesus who said to the woman of Canaan, Mt.15:24, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the hous of Israel." She was not a Jew, but a gentile dog. Still she regarded his statement as an invitation to worship. Strange is it not also that Mr. Spurgeon believed Christ died only for the elect, particular redemption, limited atonement, and yet he prayed for the conversion of the whole earth (Evening Devotions for Aug.8 & Dec.24). Mr. Patterson has got himself in a bind by saying something that would mean He would have to fire Spurgeon and Spurgeon's Lord. Come Dr. Patterson,would you fire John Gano, Shubal Stearns, James Petigru Boyce, Elijah Craig, etc?

Asinus Gravis

Posted: March 18, 2009 12:42 PM


Who wants to fool with a 4-point or a 5-point trophy to hang on one's wall? They are immature beings. Give them a chance to grow up and spout some really impressive antlers.

Doug S

Posted: March 18, 2009 12:45 AM

I went to a small Christian high school where the Bible teacher had the audacity to have the entire senior class of 30 students read the entire Bible while asking one question - does God choose us? This was in response to a student's question of "Does the Bible teach predestination?" He decided not to answer the question but to let the students answer it. Not too surprisingly, the entire class decided that the Bible clearly teaches that God choose us. Also not too surprisingly, the teacher lost his job....

Ptr. Dante/ Phillipines

Posted: March 17, 2009 10:50 AM


Calvinist really dont have any stand may i ask you one question when you Believed the Lord Jesus who decided for you to accep him? And have they ever read the Parable of the Sower that in any case Christ just teach us to share the Gospel.

sarah L.

Posted: March 16, 2009 10:56 PM


Well, whatever happens, it will be as God wills - after all, He is sovereign!

Cephas

Posted: March 16, 2009 8:23 PM

I am so weary of this "debate". My belief in the limited atonement doesn't deter my obedience to God in evangelism. I am a follower of Jesus who holds to the doctrines of grace but I spend a great deal of time having lively but respectful conversations with my non Calvinist brothers and sisters. I am appalled at the lack of charity shown whenever this topic arises and astounded at the level of vitriol and callousness shown by both sides. Perfection of understanding is NOT a prerequisite to salvation. Get on with the business of heaven and get over your sibling rivalries.

Tired_Baptist

Posted: March 14, 2009 7:45 PM

There is nothing wrong with the article, except that it was based on the report of Wade Burleson who is nothing more than irrelevant gadfly in the SBC. He calls certain SBC leaders liars and no one seems to question his truthfulness. The response of the readers has been depraved. Both Calvinist and non-Calvinist have been nasty in their responses. But it is the super-pious who point to themselves being in the field of service instead behind the walls of the irrelevant church or classroom. They regard others as cult like, yet they have no idea what Scripture says if they think one can just ignore doctrine. God is at work behind the walls of the Church, behind the walls of Academia and outside the walls in the world where the Gospel is preached. It is perverse to try to tear down God’s work, as some have tried in this exchange, by disregarding doctrine, by tearing down a denomination, by destroying their brother with such violent language. We all have a need to repent.

Tim Royal

Posted: March 13, 2009 8:07 PM


Rosemary, I would suggest that you speak with your pastor or a strong bible teacher you trust regarding this matter, or read the books suggested above. The points are fairly involved and in depth doctrine revolving around hundreds of scriptures.

Rosemary

Posted: March 13, 2009 5:40 AM


Can someone tell me the points of Calvinism and Arminianism? Thanks.

user name todd 2

Posted: March 12, 2009 9:18 PM

Prevenient grace is simply unprovable and is contrived by arminians to make their view of the freedom of the will possible, even though scripture is clear our will is in bondage to sin and could not be free to please God. UNLESS God steps in and makes the will free again. Thats where prevenient grace invention comes to the rescue for the arminian. Yet this contrived doctrine is found nowhere in scripture. What is in scripture is the doctrine of regeneration which is how God chooses (Hey now not so fast, he is allowed to choose too) to step in and makes us willing. But then you would have God getting His way again and we cant have that now can we, my Arminian brothers. That would be God being God, what with his will being free and not in bondage to sin etc. How soveriegn and unfair for God to do what he wants, when he wants, with whom he wants. Arminians need to stop whining already and tell me where in scripture it says God has to ask peoples permission to change someones heart.

Larry C

Posted: March 12, 2009 5:04 PM

The only limited atonement is its limited to the human race to accept God's plan of salvation. God's selection or predestination is in terms of all of mankind is selected and given the choice to accept or reject His plan of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. God did not select or predestinate trees, fish, or other non-human species to be part of this plan. . Jesus' plan of salvation is universal and open to anyone who accepts. John 3:16 says "For God so love the world" and "whosoever believe in Him" is all inclusive to have the opportunity to accept or reject His plan of salvation. God desires that no one should perish. God's desire and the terms "world" and "whosover" is not limited to a few preselect. Is a "calvinist" really a mormon or jehovah witness in denial ?

Patrick Gann

Posted: March 12, 2009 4:29 PM

Why are the Calvinists getting jittery? If they get laid off, it was predestined to happen! *dadum CHING!* --- ok, that was a stupid joke. Anyway, I think Robbie C.'s comment is the best of anyone's I've read. Much as I would personally love to have a job in an ivory tower, it's probably not the most effective way to live my life. Of course, having a full-time job at a seminary doesn't preclude doing good works.

Robbie C.

Posted: March 12, 2009 8:29 AM

This is "brilliant stuff." This is so important in the world view. We have created such an amazing atmosphere, that while kids are starving, being involved in sex trade, divorce is just as high in the "walls" of "church, pastors are living lives of luxury (in most cases) - the first to argue this point will be the ones that state we just live in the middle, REALLY now, and ON and ON and ON, we have time to debate such things. All the seminary people should go get jobs that benefit others and live out the GOSPEL in ways that truly make a difference. The track record does not support the "system" that we have created. Talk about "pork" and "special interest spending", the "church system" we have have is the WORST.

Don Horban

Posted: March 12, 2009 7:50 AM


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

JKB	Posted: March 11, 2009 7:54 PM


Did you know there’s a controversy? http://poleblog.polemos.net/2007/08/did-you-know-theres-controversy.htm l

CB Smith

Posted: March 11, 2009 7:00 PM

I have served as a field representative with the IMB since 1992 up until recently. Our family is currently on a leave of absence. Seminaries are great places to hammer out issues related to theology--for that matter, all the systemats. During my years of service for Christ I have watched debates rage stateside and the lost continue to die around the world without a saving knowledge of Jesus. My role has always been to present truth in a cross-culturally relevant manner and to be as persuasive as possible. The results belong to the Holy Spirit. Always have and always will. The shame on our denomination is we are losing the battle due to our own egos and calendars of meetings. We would rather attend a meeting, debate an opponent, entangle ourselves in the non-essential while the world's spiritually hungry continue to move hopelessly through their existence wondering what their purpose and meaning in life is all about. I'd rather live on the other side of the world...in obscurity.

Claire

Posted: March 11, 2009 6:02 PM


THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH

David

Posted: March 11, 2009 5:53 PM


Do you think that Calvin was a five-point calvinist? Check out the link here with quotes from Calvin where it is really is quite clear that he did not hold to limited atonement at all. http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/calvine.htm

Anita B'Day

Posted: March 11, 2009 4:40 PM


I don't know why you Arminians can't accept the truth of the Gospels: Jesus died for His elect (of which I am one). The rest of you are going to fry and there's not a ding-dang-diddly thing you can do about it. That is the Good News (well, at least to me)!

Shay	Posted: March 11, 2009 3:48 PM


He should have never allowed them to teach at the school.

Predestined to Choose

Posted: March 11, 2009 3:02 PM

I think the seminary should be free to hire and fire as they so choose. After all, I am sure we would be outraged if there was any interference in the firing of a seminary professor who proclaimed himself an atheist. This case is just a less extreme variation on the same theme. Religious organizations should be able to let people go for not agreeing with their religious views. That being said, I think the seminary is making a poor choice. But they ought to be free to make that poor choice.

Page: 1 2 3

E-mail this page

Write CT

Print this article

Post a comment