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Christianity Today, April (Web-only), 2009 |

Theology in the News

Death By Deism

No merely civil religion alone can sustain a free republic.

Collin Hansen | posted 4/20/2009 09:07AM

Though they aren't journalists, Christian Smith and Melinda Lundquist Denton broke one of the biggest stories in contemporary religion with their 2005 book Soul Searching: The Religious and Spiritual ...

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Seth	Posted: May 01, 2009 4:32 PM


I'm more interested in Pandeism Fish'ies statement. On what planet does he get the idea that Pandeism is overtaking Christianity? Last I checked there were more Christians in Wyoming than there are Pandeists in the entire world.

Joe	Posted: April 24, 2009 9:33 AM


Jeff's comment is not a question, but a biased statement. He knows it is not even the point of the article. He just does not have the courage to state it. I suggest he reads the book "Tortured for Christ" to really understand between torture and Christ followers. He also does not believe in the existence of evil, even in the face of "9-11" and the constant threat of terrorists.

Russ H

Posted: April 22, 2009 12:43 AM

"If orthodox Christianity gives way to MTD, American public life may further degenerate into a feel-good free-for-all. No merely civil religion, especially one shaped by MTD, can long sustain a free republic by itself. A nation committed only to liberty and the pursuit of happiness will be left wondering why life is so unfulfilling." If? Christianity gives way to MTD.... Well, what do you think we have in Obama? The quintessential MTDer who couldn't even notice the Rev Wright's odd (might we call it "Black MTD") after 20 years in the pew. And is not the new America he is fast crafting the MTD America?

Russell

Posted: April 21, 2009 1:53 PM


I'm always puzzled by the frequency of argument that some religion carries some benefit for the believer or society. Should we believe something because of this? Can people actually do that? Maybe so. And no doubt it is easier to convince people that Christianity is good for society, than to convince people that it is simply true.

Fritz

Posted: April 21, 2009 10:40 AM

After reading the posts in response, it seems that MTD advocates find the easiest group to find fault with to compare and to justify. It is not, as some would claim, the Calvinists’ that should be compared but the Armenian views as it is the closest yet still fundamental and Biblically referenced without blocking out whole sections of the Bible to satisfy a desire that the world be as personally imagined without a need to study it or the world. It would seem that MTD is more folk lore than verse-by-verse, building precept by precept. The article is excelled. I have been waiting a long time for the door for a dictator to open and it seems that we are now able to speculate in that topic for the first time in American history of the last 100 years. Nixon never had a chance because of circumstances even though he is a good indicator that it is possible that such a man can be generated within these boarders themselves.

One Disciple

Posted: April 21, 2009 3:24 AM

There is nothing to add to what has already been predicted, viz.: 1) "The person who has nothing --[in terms of discipleship-of-Jesus-based 'knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven', worship in Spirit and truth (without any religious frontiers)]-- will have taken away from him even the little he has" (Matt. 13:12; John 4: 21-24); 2) "Will the Son of Man find faith on earth when he comes?" (Luke 18:8) It is going to get worse not better! However, the hard way and narrow gate to life, through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, is still accessible to those who "ask", "seek" and "knock" (Matt. 7: 7-14). YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO!

Glenn

Posted: April 20, 2009 11:27 PM

As the moniker implies, MTD is Therapeutic - i.e. it provides a form of feel-good therapy without any of the transformative energy and purpose of honest-to-God Christianity. What's worse is that ostensibly Christian pastors (even some in mainline denominations) are promoting this same namby-pamby feel-good version of Jesus in their churches. We need to stand up against this "civil religion" before all moral direction and God-fueled activism and social concern is lost in the waves of an ocean of "If it feels good, do it."

Lorin

Posted: April 20, 2009 11:26 PM

Wait a minute. dopderbeck.. what about the Community Redevelopment Act in 1977 under Carter, strengthened by Clinton in 1995, that banks be forced to make risky loans to combat redlining? The Democratic executives kept journalists and Republicans at bay by spending “close to $150 million on lobbying” in ten years. Chris Dodd (head of the Senate Banking Committee), Barack Obama and John Kerry were the top three recipients of Fannie’s money, together collecting around $360,000. etc, etc...This debacle is not a Republican/ conservative fruit alone...it began 'well meaning', very misguided 'poverty abatement programs' forced on the banks.

Anna	Posted: April 20, 2009 9:53 PM

The teenager "beliefs" aren't Christian beliefs. The central goal of life is loving Jesus not yourself. And who defines good. Is it works or giving up your life for someone. Neither, actually, only faith in the Lord will get you to heaven. You can be good and still not believe in Jesus. And, the biggee, God is always with you and in you, not just when you're in trouble. It almost sounds as if these teenagers have been attending a Montesorri school instead of Church. Montesorri teaches the child is the center of the Universe not God and his Son, Jesus.

MP	Posted: April 20, 2009 9:43 PM

This is a thoughtful article. I think evangelicals need to realize just how much they have promoted and perpetuated MTD. For example, Rick Warren's all time best selling "Purpose Driven Life" is a wonderful example of such sentimental, MTD. Its no coinicdence that Warren hosted his "civic formum" last fall, asserting about himself, "thats what leaders do." No, that's what leaders of civil religion do. Leaders of the Church know better, however, and are able to discern the long term consequences of MTD. The question we should be asking ourselves is not whether MTD and traditional Christian are compatible, but rather whether traditional Christianity will survive the popularity of MTD in America.

BH	Posted: April 20, 2009 9:10 PM


Quote: "...the question at stake is whether traditional Christianity is good for America." No, it is not. And that is a very good thing. To further realize the Kingdom of God is necessarily to diminish America and any other nation, for the Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom, but the reign and rule of God. Any religion that is 'good for America' isn't a religion I want any part of.

Ted Voth Jr

Posted: April 20, 2009 8:41 PM

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' This is all that and more than the Church should expect from a worldly establishment such as government, 'the kingdoms ot this world'. Remember, foolish, thoughtless Christian, that John said 'The world lies in the power of the wicked one.' 1 John 5.19 It's not our job to straighten the world out. it's to show the world by our example– love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness, meekness, self-control– the character of Christ. 'My Kingdom isn't from this world; if it were, my slaves would fight.'

RBarryYoung

Posted: April 20, 2009 8:14 PM

Some times I really wonder where CT's authors get their silly claims from. "Unlike traditional Christianity, MTD ... promotes selfish pursuit of financial gain." Say what?!? Now I know that when CT says "traditional Christianity" they really mean "modern American neo-evangelicalism" but by what stretch of the imagination does today's s-called Evangelical preachers not promote the "pursuit of financial gain"? Do you even pay attention to what your brothers and sisters say in public in the name of Christ? American neo-evangelicals may have absconded with the original Evangelicals name, but they sure have not adopted their asceticism.

MTD&CrusadeStaff

Posted: April 20, 2009 7:48 PM

I'm in my 40's, have two MTD kids, and I'm Crusade staff and an MTD. The MTD definition has been stated in contrast to the Calvinists who can't stand it when other Christians aren't self-loathing like they are: MTDs and non-MTDs share points 1 & 2, after all, the CCC Four Laws begin with "God has a wonderful plan for your life!" The real point of point #3? The Calvinists central goal is to be angry about how everyone else IS happy while they're self-loathing. Point #4? The Calvinists are angry, convinced that God wants to micro-manage their lives, but even angrier when other Christians don't pull their hair out over it like they do. Point #5? Only Calvinists worry about who's going to heaven when they die, and they're angry that anyone let's God worry about it. MTDs love Jesus, not Calvin. Sure, MTDs don't know their Bibles like they should, but they're lovers! It's just that MTDs get stressed over non-MTDs who know their Bibles - but don't know love. Sister Teresa? MTD, baby.

Jeff	Posted: April 20, 2009 7:07 PM


Does orthodox Christianity believe that the US should torture prisoners?

Buddy

Posted: April 20, 2009 5:12 PM


Thank you, Angelia. That was well-said.

RMAdams curator@cqod.com

Posted: April 20, 2009 5:07 PM

The author seems not to understand that Xianity is incompatible with civil religion. The Kingdom is the most radical condition that can descend on a person. As such, Xianity must be emasculated before it can serve civil society. That it can be displaced by "MTD" is not surprising at all. The five points of "MTD" coincide nicely with the traditional American folk religion, into which some parts of Xianity have sometimes leaked. The most important issue that "MTD" raises is not whether the nation can survive--America's fate is already settled in the God's mind--but whether "MTD" raises a new barrier to Xian evangelization. I submit that there is nothing new here except the frankness with which some people's admit their rejection of the Gospel. We need badly to stop pretending that America is in any worthwhile sense a Christian nation. Apologetics based on that assumption are laughable. The only source of salvation is Jesus, and the only corporate entity to be saved is His Kingdom.

Deist

Posted: April 20, 2009 4:15 PM

Deism is the first article of every "revealed" religion - the simple belief in God. The various "revealed" religions have added much nonsense to this beautiful and realistic idea such as God favoring the Hebrews above all others, original sin, and an angel giving the Koran to Mohamed. A Deist believes in God based on the application of his or her God-given reason on Nature. To a Deist, and to most "revealed" religionists, the designs in Nature presuppose a Designer of Nature. There is no need for a rabbi or any other clergy to tell us this. To learn more visit http://www.deism.com Progress! Bob Johnson www.deism.com

Angelia

Posted: April 20, 2009 4:06 PM

Orthodox Christianity giving way to MTD? Ummm, Ok. So "and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" is at risk of not being true? I think not. What I don't like is the implication here that somehow America and Christianity, i.e. the Church are either synonymous or so closely linked as to be co-dependent. Yes, Christians were there at our inception and our greatest leaders have been strong in their faith. But we've also had MTD-ers as well. What I don't like is this idea that Chrisitianity has to be THE dominant culture or the sky is falling. Chrisitianity is very (maybe even best) effective when it is a counter-cultural force for good. The world is the world and it loves to "tell people how great they are their whole damned (literally) lives." We must lovingly offer the truth that it is Christ that sets us free and transforms us, but we can't force it on people. American always has had a civil religion. Nothing new here.

Pyre	Posted: April 20, 2009 3:52 PM


This mythical hybrid of Deism and Christianity is neither. MTD's first premise is that "A God exists who... watches over human life on earth." Actual Deism posits that God has not intervened since creating the universe. MTD says nothing whatsoever about Christ. This is like offering to give us a mixture of water and wine, and actually giving us Kool-Aid™.

dopderbeck

Posted: April 20, 2009 3:02 PM

I really don't get the point here. I don't see "MTD" as anything much different than what Thomas Jefferson believed. It was prominent and not very helpful then, and it's prominent and not very helpful now. Nothing new under the Sun. Meanwhile, what does Hansen mean by this: "Our current economic malaise reveals what happens when accountability wanes and selfishness reigns"? So let me get this straight: the libertarianism of the hard Religious Right bears the fruit of the current credit debacle, and it's .... Oprah and Obama's fault? Please. Friends, this is what happens when Christianity is identified too closely with an economic / political movement, every time. Blaming Oprah and Obama is a classic case of pulling out splinters while ignoring our own logs.

K.	Posted: April 20, 2009 2:20 PM


If orthodox Christianity gives way to MTD, then we Christians have no one to blame but ourselves.

Patrick Gann

Posted: April 20, 2009 1:08 PM

I don't know, Chuck. I too disagree with Hansen's prognosis for the country, but there are other credible alternatives to Smith and Denton's "MTD" than the bleak picture you paint. The problem with MTD is that there doesn't seem to be any indication that social justice is a real imperative. I do think a sort of vaguely-framed "civil religion" would serve the country well, and I do like your statement "There is no greater freedom than the freedom NOT to believe as others do." But the teenage-American MTD as described here doesn't account for a lot of core beliefs that are necessary for a functional society. I think Hansen is dead-on when he writes: "MTD naively underestimates evil and promotes selfish pursuit of financial gain."

Pandeism Fish

Posted: April 20, 2009 12:44 PM

The direction we are ultimately and inevitably moving in is that of Pandeism, the belief that the Creator of the Universe -- what you would call God and Deists or Pandeists would call the Deus -- in fact became the Universe, ceasing altogether to exist as a separate entity so that it could experience existence through the lives of the creatures that would evolve therein.... Pandeism is overtaking Christianity because Pandeism accepts the findings of scientific investigation and even encourages science to investigate further.... Conservative blogger Mark Finkelstein has now even suggested that Barack Obama's true faith is Pandeism.... see http://finkelblog.com/index.php/2009/04/11/happy-pan-deism-day-from-gail-co llins/

Chuck

Posted: April 20, 2009 12:22 PM


There is no greater freedom than the freedom NOT to believe as others do. The alternative to MTD is not social stability, it is a return to the tyranny of the Middle Ages. Those who wish to live in Iran and Saudi Arabia are welcome to get on the boat and go there.

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