All Comments for: The Heresy of 'Individualism'? | Christianity Today

Free Newsletters:

RSS Feeds |

Audio |

Twitter

Home > 2009 > July (Web-only)

Christianity Today, July (Web-only), 2009 |

SPEAKING OUT

The Heresy of 'Individualism'?

The 'individualism' we profess is not only not a heresy—it is at the heart of the gospel.

Richard J. Mouw | posted 7/15/2009 12:21PM

In her opening address to the Episcopal Church's recent General Convention, the Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori, the church's presiding bishop, made a special point of denouncing what she labeled "the ...

[Reader Reviews]

Average User Rating:

Rate and Comment on this article

Displaying 1 - 25 of 42 comments.

Page: 1 2

Show All

Peter

Posted: July 22, 2009 8:49 PM

I was shocked by your report. Just typical - liberal Christians attacking Evangelicals. then I googled the article and wondered if Mr Mouw had actually read the article. I think this is a case where the author has read into the article his preconceptions about Jefferts Schori. She mades some telling points about the current financial crisis, ecology and mission. And I'm not a fan of hers. To be honest, the emphasis on personal slavation can be debased into individualism. I seem to remember an article in CT that suggested that there was an increase in churchless Christianity. I do come across people who say: You don't have to go to Church to be a Christian.

Lane	Posted: July 22, 2009 4:10 PM


I too am surprised that Mouw chose to focus on the scary pull quote being passed around the internet rather than on the entire sermon. Certainly, Bishop Schori has often been ham-fisted in her engagement of theological topics, but I expected less of a kneejerk response from Dr. Mouw. Did he even bother to read the quote in context?

susan

Posted: July 22, 2009 7:53 AM

THANK YOU, STEVE. YOU VERY KINDLY SPOKE THE TRUTH. I STILL BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY SPEAKERS IN THE CHURCH REALM TODAY WHO DO NOT KNOW AND/OR DENY THE SCRIPTURES. THAT IS MY ISSUE WITH THE MOVEMENT GOING ON WHICH JOINS WITH THE "NEW AGERS". THERE IS NOTHING TO STAND FOR WHEN YOU LISTEN TO AND FOLLOW THIS WORLDLY NONSENSE. IT IS THE COWARD'S WAY, NOT THE WAY OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS NOR OF JESUS THE CHRIST.

Steve Skeete

Posted: July 21, 2009 4:55 PM

"...That we can be saved as individuals - that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God...is a form of idolatry." These arguments abound: it is the "body" not the individual, the "community" and not the believer that does this or that. Often these arguments are advanced by someone whom, it seems, wants to make a strong point for the one, often without realizing that they are doing injustice to the other. To say that none of us can be in a "right relationship with God" as individuals would be an amazing statement if it were true, but it isn't. What is true is that the church by living in communiuty testifies to the salvation, grace and power of God. It may also be argued that God's salvation, grace and power is more evident when demonstrated by the community; but one would be hard pressed to make a biblical case that the individual believer cannot evidence or testify to the same. The "body" is all of us, but the body is also all of its parts.

susan

Posted: July 21, 2009 1:14 PM

I left out Gabriel Ferrer's name. I was addressing him because of his comment to who he address as "dick". There are so many who claim to be anointed. Let the wheat and the tares grow together. Just don't listen to people who are tearing down in order to make their point about the Body of Christ. Stick with God's Holy written word and the Word. Discern and Know the Truth personally, then live what you know.

susan

Posted: July 21, 2009 1:07 PM

This is a short answer to the tone and disrespect in his comment. It really doesn't matter what the bishop said after the quote from her "sermon". If she wanted to talk about the aspect of the Body of Christ, then do it. This tearing down of one truth to make a point, is what the so called "progressive" clergy of this day are doing. They have degrees and been to seminary, but they do know know the God who is in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. People sitting in the pews need to take responsibility to study the word and pray. Take responsibility to know who YOU are in Christ alone. She doesn't know anymore than one who Knows and has experienced the Lord in this life. Look at what she claims to be her credentials. Who cares why she says she is "qualified" or any more anointed. We need to discern the ERRORS of the progressives in the church and learn through the word and the Holy Spirit within you. Just stand and look and ask and walk in the right path that He teaches you.

Fr. Ian Yorston

Posted: July 21, 2009 8:10 AM


There is always going to be a personal application of faith otherwise why we would we have baptism, confirmation and confession. The sacraments draw individuals into the experience of God's grace. We repond to them individually within the Body of Christ.

Fr. Ian Yorston

Posted: July 21, 2009 8:10 AM


There is always going to be a personal application of faith otherwise why we would we have baptism, confirmation and confess

Gabriel Ferrer

Posted: July 20, 2009 10:46 AM

poor dick misses the whole point of the sermon in order to take a few jabs at a church he finds troubling. fair enough. but dick should have listened more closely--or better yet, read the bishop's sermon the next morning (i'm sure he's following from some source...) the next morning (on the same theme) she said: That transplanted or expanded heart has much to do with ubuntu. It is a recognition that the one Body of Christ has many parts, each essential to the functioning and flourishing of the whole, and that no one part can be the whole. It is a deep and abiding acknowledgement that together we are whole, and he cannot be whole otherwise. When the parts of the body are working together, they discover both their gifts and their limitations. to characterize the bishop as against "us evangelicals" is wrong. dick knows this. and pandering to the crowd is beneath dick as a leader. shame on dick.

Angel

Posted: July 19, 2009 12:50 AM

These are challenging times and it is only going to get more and more difficult to express faith like ours in Jesus Christ and the Word of God without feeling condemned, untrusted, or disliked. Anytime a Bishop can get arrested for ringing the church bells, you know Christianity is not welcomed. So many churches are living to please the world. They want faith but without conviction to His word, His truth. It is time to stay ever mindful that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but are mighty before God for the overcoming and pulling down of strongholds. Time to gird up our loins and wear the breastplate of righteousness because there will soon be more of them than true, in love with God Christians fighting the good fight of faith. Most of it is said and done out of ignorance. As God said, His people die from lack of knowledge. We must continue to speak the truth and not become ashamed to confess our faith. Afterall, a totally backslidden church is what the devil seeks.

susan

Posted: July 18, 2009 8:32 AM

I don't know why this person, Schori, said what she said. I only know that these kind of statements seem to be coming at believers more and more. The "new" philosophy of this age is OLD Humanism, and it permeates the churches and seminaries. It is a struggle to persevere in the faith. The time is NOW. God's time is NOW. Stay in the Word, people. My question to Schori is, what do you believe? Are you born again? Who do you say that He is? Joining a church community doesn't make one a believer. There are very FEW people that DO NOT live in community. People have always needed each other and have helped each other. That is not the Good News, however. We need Christ the Savior NOW. Salvation is still NOW. He came, He lived on earth and died, HE IS RISEN, and He WILL come again. Hold on to your relationship with a personal God through Christ. Use discernment with the nonsense being taught. Stay in the TRUTH. Pray. Christ is still TRUTH and there is no heresy with HIM

TomE	Posted: July 18, 2009 8:14 AM


Its often overlooked that; Eph. 5:25 says -- Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her.

Dan Coggins

Posted: July 17, 2009 10:47 PM


Mouw hit a home run in my view. Schori's message will continue the downward trend in the church she leads. Without meeting individual needs for salvation and a personal relationship with Christ there is NO power for real community as God designed it. Ironically her viewpoint will further the split within worldwide Anglicanism.

Evangelical+Anglican

Posted: July 17, 2009 4:39 PM

Isn't it possible that both are true? We become saved as individuals (an event) but we can only BE saved (an ongoing process) in community. In any given moment it may be that we are in right relationship with God as individuals, but over time we cannot be in right relationship with God unless we heed his call to become part of His body. The traveling salesman met God as an individual, and was drawn to grace, but absent the supporting community of the church, over time he may well have slipped away from grace he received in that moment.

Jojo Bive Jr.

Posted: July 17, 2009 2:32 PM

Becoming identified to a particular church is one of the purest signs of conversion. The soul longs for community and fellowship; as water seeks its own level and would not stop to flow until it is so, so the soul seeks its part in the Body of believers. Until it finds its way in, it remains restless. The Holy Spirit forthrightly guides and directs the believer to a particular local assembly of believers where he can be nurtured, discipled and made useful for God's Kingdom. Salvation can be experienced individually minus the physical effort of the church. Such is the case of the thief at the cross. That is not to say that we abandon evangelism altogether. Radio and TV Broadcasts, books, pamphlets, and even the internet can be used by God. In that case, to be saved 'individually' is not heresy; but to remain individual, alone and recluse after being saved is what may amount to heresy. Diversity is not heresy. Being watchful of one's doctrines and practices is not heresy.

corpuschristioutreachministries

Posted: July 17, 2009 5:58 AM

Good article, when i heard the bishops statement i had 'a feel' of where she was coming from, many evangelicals have expressed this same idea over the years. A rebuking of the strong reductionist thought that locates Christianity mainly in the place of individual salvation, but sometimes we have a tendency to over react and head towards the other side of the ditch, I like and appreciate what the bishop is trying to say, but mouws atricle gives us some good balance.

David Joseph

Posted: July 17, 2009 2:13 AM


I agree, Chuck. There is no absolute truth to which we must submit. Submit! The very idea. Truth is relative, right? It's not heresy if I drive down the road any old way I want to. It's not heresy if I have sex with your girlfriend/wife, even if it's against her wishes.

Cradle Catholic

Posted: July 16, 2009 11:15 PM

We are saved BY God's grace, THROUGH our faith, and FOR good works. (per the Apostle, James) The Catholic church teaches a lot of "The Deposit of Faith" correctly, but it is off target in some teachings & institutional practices that came about after Pentecost and after the death of the apostles and their followers. There is need for reform. We need to get back to the church Jesus left for us. A book that filled in the blanks between what I knew to be true from the time of the *Early Church*, and where we are as the Roman Catholic denomination *today* is "Illicit Celibacy and The Deposit of Faith" by Edgar Davie. Outside of the bible, it's the best book I ever read about my faith. It is clearly written by an Orthodox Roman Catholic layman, with sound sources and it details everything, to where we are today. It's excellent. Go to www.illicitcelibacy.com for more information.

Chuck

Posted: July 16, 2009 12:10 PM


It is impossible to take anyone who takes the idea of heresy seriously seriously.

Catholic

Posted: July 16, 2009 11:07 AM


Catholics have the truth, all the truths. One should follow catholic teaching, not look elsewhere.

Andy C.

Posted: July 16, 2009 8:01 AM


The sentiment of the Bishops comments was admirable, however unfortunate its expression. We are indeed saved as individuals, but we aren't in right relation with God solely as such. Though by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone are we saved, yet we are never alone in our salvation and should not act as if we are.

individualism

Posted: July 16, 2009 6:24 AM

The advantage old established (episcopal and catholic) denominations have is that there is not the sense of individual glory and celebrity in the pastorate as there is in evangelicalism. There is also, generally, not an emphasis on what the individual can get out of the relationship with God, like health and wealth but rather an emphasis on what the individual must do to be fruitful. Then of course we are all also supposed to become one body in Christ and not merely enjoy personal salvation for our own sake. The old apostolic way was to pool resources and to share our wealth with the weaker ones. Such a generous and deep sharing of wealth just will not happen in the churches in the west.

Scott

Posted: July 16, 2009 6:20 AM

I read the Presiding Bishop's comments in her original statement, and it seems that you are interpreting her words as some sort of denunciation of evangelical Christians. I see no references to evangelicals or any other group of Christians. On the contrary, it seems that she was criticizing our secular culture's glorification of the Individual and trying to uphold our Christian duty to help one another on the road to salvation. Why are so many trying to twist her words into a denunciation of evangelical Christianity? Could it be because she is a woman? If she were a man, would so many people quickly jump to conclusions such as yours without asking her to clarify her comments. It is sad that these opening comments of hers receive all this sensational coverage, while her fine opening sermon later in the day is ignored.

PaulBack

Posted: July 16, 2009 4:06 AM


Sad, but the good bishop Jefferts Schori should have also noticed by now the heretical practices that have crept into the Episcopal.

Ephrem Hagos

Posted: July 16, 2009 3:49 AM


Let us stop beating around the bush! The worst form of modern idolatry is not the individualist focus, at all, but post-Apostolic Christianity itself in which there is no room, whatsoever, for knowing the LORD firsthand and personally as per the terms and seal of the "new covenant" (Jer. 31: 31-34; Matt. 26: 26-29 ff).

Page: 1 2

E-mail this page

Write CT

Print this article

Post a comment