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Some of these are R-rated films, due to language, violence, and sexuality. What do you say to Christians who object to the whole idea of R-rated material?

Winter: Don't read the Bible! It's R-rated too! That's more of a cultural problem, though. How we separate our cultural religion in America from true faith in Christ is always going to be a struggle, I think—politically and in the arts. Nobody wants to admit that we live in an R-rated world.

But there are a lot of films with gratuitous ugliness and misbehavior on the screen. How do you distinguish between responsible and irresponsible portrayals of evil?

Winter: It's about the integrity of the story. What is it that is necessary in order for the story to be told? I don't know how to make a PG version of Braveheart. Mel Gibson took a risk with The Passion—and made the R-rated movie that it probably was in real life. We can argue about "Where's that line?" But crucifixion is a gruesome thing. How do you tell a mafia story without the language? How do you tell Braveheart without that kind of violence? Not everyone has to go see it, but that's the story.

On the other hand, maybe the story doesn't deserve to be told. Maybe people are telling stories they don't need to tell. I don't think we need to see every movie. A movie has become a product—something we consume without even thinking about it. It takes a lot for movies to stand out for us, to rise above the noise level. People don't pursue it from that artistic standpoint. They pursue it from a commercial standpoint. That's the danger of being sucked in. We become part of the culture, making stuff that has no redeeming value. Only our great storytellers can [nourish] us.

One more question—perhaps the most important of all: In a street fight, who would win: The Fantastic Four, or the Incredibles?

Winter: In a street fight, the Fantastic Four might take 'em, since they have been around since the '60s. We like to think of the Incredibles as derivative, and that the Fantastic Four are the original deal. I put my money on Reed Richards and his gang.

(For an extended version of this interview, visit Looking Closer.)

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