Rapper and funnyman John Reuben is on the defensive, and that's partly our fault. We had asked Reuben to read our review of his latest CD, The Boy vs. The Cynic (Gotee), before we caught up with him for this interview. Andree Farias, who wrote the review, called the album "quite good" and gave it 3½ stars. But he also criticized what he felt was a "lack of focus" and "Reuben's unwillingness to stick to one persona," switching from serious songs to silly ones. Not surprisingly, Reuben disagreed, saying his album DID have focus, and the end result is a spirited debate between The Artist and the Critic. Reuben even scored a point when he correctly noted that Farias contradicted himself at one point in the interview. But it's all good—Farias says the conversation was light and friendly with lots of laughter, and no hard feelings. No winners, no losers. We'll call it a tie.

I had asked you to read my review of your album prior to this interview. What did you think?

John Reuben: You know what? Here's what I disagree with. You didn't really have anything bad to say, except that you say my album shows a lack of focus. I think it's pretty focused. But you could be correct. Who knows? I thought, based on some of the comments you made, it deserved a higher score. But, it's your opinion. The songs worked well, and I think there was a bigger purpose.

But it did lack focus. You go from lightheaded pop ditties to heady, thought-provoking material.

John Reuben: The goal is to really connect with everyday people and then bring them into something that perhaps will be a little bit deeper. Any good speaker communicates that way. You can't always have biting observations. Sometimes you have to ease up a little bit.

Why not stick to the biting observations and throw away the poppy material, though?

John Reuben: Here's the thing. A buddy of mine—this guy is a very intelligent gentleman—says that he would not like my biting observations if he didn't know that I couldn't take myself seriously. He doesn't trust anybody's opinion if they're continually taking themselves seriously. I don't want to come across as a know-it-all. There's people who fall into the trap Rage Against the Machine fell into. The only thing they could do was biting. And those songs were amazing to me. I love Rage. I love those anthems. But their biggest downfall was that they were very one-dimensional. Especially as a believer, I have to have some sort of resolution because I'm not angry all the time.

I also don't want to alienate everyday people who sometimes just want a song that will get them to work in the morning. They don't necessarily want to analyze something. They just want to enjoy [it], and later on, they'll dive into the deeper stuff. And I'm the same way. People want to unwind. They want a song that will encourage them. If they're skeptical, they want something that will be a conversation piece. If I wrote a record that was completely without those moments where you can breathe a little, I would alienate the majority of the people who end up getting into the deeper songs.

But, for the most part, there are already enough people in Christian music making songs that will help people unwind. Christian radio calls it "positive hits." Why go with the flow?

John Reuben: That's the thing, though. I think you could look at it from this angle too, and that is to make people that always like to hang around the surface a little bit, draw them in and take them a little deeper, but let them trust you first. The flipside of that is people who are over-analytical and always critiquing. It's also challenging for them to enjoy themselves and not have to take life so serious all the time. You have to have a balance. Me, as a person, I'm not one or the other all the time. Like I really like the "Sunshine" song or the song I did with Tim Skipper [of House of Heroes], "I'm So Glad." That's really enjoyable to me. And then there are times when I genuinely like the harder stuff. It's just a matter of having a balanced record, which you would say it's unbalanced. But you're wrong and I'm right.

I didn't say "unbalanced." I said "unfocused." But hold on a second. Are you saying that being fun and being deep are mutually exclusive things? Look at Switchfoot and their song "Gone." That proves your theory wrong.

John Reuben: But have you read the lyrics to "Sunshine" and "Nuisance" and those type of songs?

I have, and they're good songs. I'm not discrediting them. You're just making it sound like you can't have depth and a catchy melody in the same song.

John Reuben: But I think those two songs, in my opinion, are somewhat deep.

But not to the point of "Chapter 1," "Follow Your Leader," or "Sales Pitch" [other songs from The Boy Vs. The Cynic].

John Reuben: Right. Well, it depends on how you look at it. It's laymen's terms versus something a little more complicated. To me, "Sunshine" is one of those songs that, lyrically, if you took it and put it under something dark, someone might think it's a lot deeper than it is. "Nuisance" is a very basic, spelled-out song. But, in my opinion, it's still a gateway for many people to get into something more.

I get what you're saying, and that has been my goal since I started with music. I started out at open mics. I'm no stranger to being around people who are very well thought-out lyricists. When I was 15 or 16, I was very much an underground artist and my goal was, "How do we take this and infiltrate it into pop culture?" We end up preaching to the choir.

I think a good songwriter can be gauged by his or her ability to take depth and meaning and put them into a pop music context.

John Reuben: Obviously I can't get into this without making myself sound like I'm building myself up, but that's genuinely what most people say about [my music], that I'm able to take a pop song and put meaning into it. I actually think about that Switchfoot song that you mentioned. I like that song a lot. It never struck me as a really deep song. It just struck me as a quality song that challenges us about the things that aren't going to last. On the same note, that's what "Nuisance" talks about. That's what "All I Have" talks about. Wanting a little bit more out of life than the mundane. These are all topics that are very valuable subject matter. But I really don't see how "Gone" is deeper than [those songs]. I really can't.

The Switchfoot song does have another dimension that most music nowadays lacks, and that is timelessness. "Nuisance," to me, sounds like blink-182's "All the Small Things," and we all know everybody now considers that song to be a joke.

John Reuben: I can agree with that. Do I think "Nuisance" will go down in history as this amazing [song]? I could see it getting "dated" as time goes on, but I can't see that happening with much else on this record. I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant. If you take the album as a whole, there's so much there. You can't discredit the whole record or knock it down based on one song. That's why I'll never do the "jiggy" formula or the Dirty South formula, but [I will do] a creative pop record, because I don't want my stuff to be dated. But I see your point.

Generally, do you read reviews? How seriously do you take them?

John Reuben: Yeah, I read reviews. I think every artist reads reviews. It gets frustrating when people don't get it [my music]. Some of the best records I've liked have gotten bad reviews. It takes time for music to sink in sometimes. Reviewers only have so much time on their hands [to review something]. I've even read bad reviews on that Switchfoot record. I've read bad reviews on the latest Relient K record, which I think was phenomenal. It breaks down to a matter of opinion and what somebody connects with. And if I remember correctly for [my previous album] Professional Rapper, you had said that the album drags on a little bit and could've really used some of my fun party tracks.

I don't even remember that review.

John Reuben: Yeah, if you're going to go back, you should go and reread that review. I'm like, "Wait a second. Last time this guy complained that I didn't have enough upbeat stuff on it. I didn't have enough bangers. It was all introspective." Go back and read that one, man!

I never said that. [Editor's note: Farias is wrong, and Reuben is right. Farias DID say that, writing that the album's "density—both lyrical and musical—can come off as a little overbearing and tiresome. In this respect, the set could've benefited from a change of pace or a couple of those self-indulgent, silly anthems he's recognized for."]

But on a serious note now: Why The Boy vs. The Cynic? What's that title mean?

John Reuben: I've been trying to shorten this statement because I have such a long explanation. I think the idea is, there's so many people who come of age and are completely optimistic and wide-eyed, not doing anything negative. "Everything's going to be great. Conquer the world. Pursue your dreams." I think the older you get the more you realize how unhealthy the world and society is. I saw a lot of my friends as they started edging towards their mid-20s get very bitter and very cynical, the same ones who were very optimistic about life [in the past].

For me, I was tired of being bitter and not wanting to be ignorant. There were two options: One was to die saying "ignorance is bliss." Or I could find out where I'm supposed to be according to God's plan, how to engage the world. Not only that, but also having the joy and hope of knowing the Father.

Check out our site's artist page to learn more about John Reuben, and check out Andree's review of The Boy vs. The Cynic for yourself by clicking here. Visit Christianbook.com to listen to sound clips and buy the music.

© Andree Farias, subject to licensing agreement with Christianity Today International. All rights reserved. Click for reprint information.

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