This Is Our City

As to my 'pie in the sky' utopian ideas, they are not that at all. They are only the application of Gospel principles to our life in this world. Love your neighbor; share your talents. Economics rests on individual choice; that mindful, valued economic activity has not brought greater reduction in poverty is because the majority of global wealth is held by a relatively small percentage of people and institutions. Wealth not being shared, most must struggle to survive. People in their economic decisions are conditioned to believe that they must be 'smart consumers', which is limited to buy at 'low price' without respect to understanding why the prices are 'low' and what effect that has on them. People are not educated by their cultures to place value on things other than 'profit'. Some people do; but few, in part because people like YOU say that individuals CAN'T make a difference. People have power in their purchases, and they should act as stewards for God's gifts.

Roger: That the reduction in 'poverty'- no real reduction, only less poor poor- is attributable primarily to 'freer markets' is your unreferenced, unsubstantiated opinion. There are many factors that have gone into the creation of jobs and reduction in 'poverty' in China; price competitiveness due to massive differences between labor supply and demand, lack of work safety and environmental standards, and also the Chinese government, like the US, had a stimulus package to counter the most recent downturn. The Chinese currency is probably undervalued with respect to the US, another factor in the migration of jobs to China. China's assumption of some of our debt, enabling our spending to continue. Economic growth has also benefited the wealthiest most, with greater wealth inequality in China now than before.

Paul, show me one example where "people in government, businesses and elsewhere acting consciously from and through Love/Spirit; and not in pursuit of "maximizing material gain" has reduced poverty anywhere in the world on the same scale as the freer markets in China and India. You can't because there are none. You offer pie-in-the-sky utopian ideas, but nothing for the real world. Shouldn't Christians be more grounded in reality and care about what actually works to reduce poverty?

Roger: "Paul, as usual you did not read my post. Again, you offered nothing but criticism." When all else fails, go to the personal attack-right, Roger? Previously posted: "The 'marketplace' of itself does not value anything but material gain; people will always be poor as a result of the 'marketplace',***except as individuals, government, and businesses act consciously to value human's and God's creation more than 'profit'. This individual, and others mentioned by CT, are good examples.*** The last is positive, and shows where the 'solution' lies; people in government, businesses and elsewhere acting consciously from and through Love/Spirit; and not in pursuit of "maximizing material gain" (profit- you cannot serve God and Mammon-Wealth-Money) or political power.

Paul, as usual you did not read my post. Again, you offered nothing but criticism. Show me any scheme at all that has raised the standard of living of any group of people to the degree that freer markets in China and India have over the past generation.

Roger: "You post nothing but criticisms." Untrue. As I hope others will attest to (if anyone else is still reading this). I have offered my 'solution' earlier, and I see no need to restate it. "The Organisation for Economic Development and Cooperation (OECD) maintains its own GINI index and related statistics for member countries. According to a 2011 OECD report, "over the two decades prior to the onset of the global economic crisis, real disposable household incomes increased by an average 1.7% a year in OECD countries. In a large majority of them, however, the household incomes of the richest 10% grew faster than those of the poorest 10%, so widening income inequality." " [http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11944-wealth-dist ribution-income-inequality.html] Free markets work best- for the wealthiest.

Paul, your right, they are still poor by US standards. They were lifted from the lowest level of starvation poverty to less poverty and far less starvation. So? What's you're point? Show me any other time in history when so many people were rescued from starving to death. You post nothing but criticisms. You have an obligation to offer an alternative to freer markets that has demonstrated at least the same level of success.

I appreciate the article on Faith in the free market. I have a Marketplace Ministry in Nigeria, West Africa with similar goals as the Writers, Josh Kwan and Dashelle Laryea. I enjoyed reading on Wes Selke's Hub Ventures and I would appreciate further contacts with the writers and Wes Selke. My email address is mdabarshi@marvelouslight.net. I have a mission for empowerment of the Marketplace businesses for Kingdom Expansion and progress.

Roger: You give yet another unreferenced statistic. The World Bank (?) figures show that people were not 'lifted out' of poverty- they were less poor. (A conversation we had previously in another blog.) The 'marketplace' of itself does not value anything but material gain; people will always be poor as a result of the 'marketplace', except as individuals, government, and businesses act consciously to value human's and God's creation more than 'profit'. This individual, and others mentioned by CT, are good examples. That you continue to insist that the 'free marketplace' will alleviate poverty apart from individuals acting according to Christian/compassionate values, that you discount such actions, is idolatrous and not of God.

Businesses intended to do nothing but earn a profit lifted more than 500 million people out of poverty in India and China over the past generation. Nothing these "social" investing companies do will ever come close to that. I applaud their efforts and admire their work, but I don't see that they are doing more good than any other business.

Love how God has used every economic system to fund His mission for us!