Today's interview is with Greg Forster, program director for Faith, Work, and Economics, part of the Kern Family Foundation. Greg is also an author, his latest book being Joy for the World: How Christianity Lost Its Cultural Influence and Can Begin Rebuilding It. Today, we talk with Greg about discipleship, vocation, and developing a theology of work.
1) A lot of people lament the demise of the church in the Western world, but you seem to view this as an opportunity for renewal. Why the optimism?
The darker the world gets, the more opportunity we have to shine like stars in the darkness (Philippians 2:15). Scripture teaches us to expect that when Christians are not only faithful, but find ways of actively manifesting their faith within the life of their culture—the culture within which we are embedded will not be able to ignore this.
American culture mostly ignores Christianity now, but that's because we have forgotten how to manifest our faith within cultural activity. There's a reformational movement going on below the surface in the American church today, and sometimes not very far below the surface. People are discovering how we live out our faith in workplaces and neighborhoods. So it's reasonable to expect that we won't be ignored much longer.
The response will sometimes be hatred, especially by those whose power and influence are challenged by our cultural activities. But others will be drawn toward the things we're doing in the culture, because the image of God is still present in everyone. We all thirst for dignity, meaning, and hope. God does not owe us success, and if it turns out that in the season of history ahead he's planning to glorify himself in America mainly through the persecution of the church, we couldn't complain. But we'd be fools to assume that we know this is what God has in store. The pessimists have given up on American culture because they see things moving in the wrong direction right now, and they just project that line straight out into the future forever. We need to go back to our history—both the history of Christianity in general and the history of American Christianity in particular. Amazing changes of fortune are not unusual, especially when God's people practice the Christian virtue of hope.
2) I found it interesting that you presented discipleship as more than simply involving newly converted believers in spiritual practices, but the holistic efforts of Christians in engaging their community. Can you explain this?
The gospel must transform, literally, everything in our lives, so that we do it all for God rather than for ourselves and our natural desires. Otherwise the gospel is not the gospel. "Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men …You are serving the Lord Christ" (Colossians 3:23-24). Religious works are wonderful things and we should all do them diligently and joyfully. I ought to do more of them than I do. But we must beware of using them to "check off God," as theologian Mike Wittmer puts it: I've gone to church and prayed and done my Bible study. Check! Now the rest of my time is for me and my natural desires. I've tithed ten percent. Check! Now the rest of my money is for me and my natural desires. Or as Mark Greene puts it: the stark choice, the choice we all confront in life, is not so much between religion and irreligion as it is between religion as "a leisure-time activity" and "whole-life discipleship" that follows Christ in all things.
The gospel must transform, literally, everything in our lives, so that we do it all for God rather than for ourselves and our natural desires.
If you want to know where Greene got the language of "whole life" discipleship, it's right there in the very first thesis of Martin Luther's 95 Theses: "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said 'repent,' he was calling for the whole life of the believer to be one of repentance." This was literally the starting point of the Reformation! Even then, Luther was only rediscovering the ancient truth that the church had always held. We're rediscovering it once again today, and it's a very exciting time.
3) Seems much of Christianity's renewed influence centers, for you, on a recovering of a robust doctrine of vocation. Why?
Vocation carries Christianity into the culture, manifesting our faith within the structures and relationships that make up a civilization. The world is content to ignore you as long as you profess and follow Christ in your leisure time. But when one worker in the office starts doing her work for Christ, watch out! Her coworkers can disregard the little gold cross she wears on a chain around her neck. If she offers to talk about what she believes, they can say no. But if she does her work in a way that manifests her faith, they can't ignore that. It will be in their faces every day, and it will be palpably, tangibly different from everyone else's work—it will smell different.
When Christians show that they find dignity and hope in their lives by serving God through the simple everyday tasks of their workplaces and neighborhoods, they're taking a sledgehammer to the foundations of evil powers.
Some will love the new smell and to some it will be a stench, but no one can ignore a powerful smell. She'll smell different even if the only visible difference is her attitude about her work. Don't underestimate how powerful that can be! Everyone wants dignity and hope, and the powers of the world use those desires to manipulate people. When Christians show that they find dignity and hope in their lives by serving God through the simple everyday tasks of their workplaces and neighborhoods, they're taking a sledgehammer to the foundations of evil powers. In those cases, where Christians have the opportunity to do things that stand out even more visibly, so much the better.
4) Your last book was the Joy of Calvinism. This book is Joy for the World. Some critics of the neo-reformed movement might say those two joys are incompatible. How would you respond?
I'm delighted to have done a lot of wonderful collaboration with both neo-reformed people and paleo-reformed people, and I don't feel like I have to identify myself with either camp. You'll find endorsements from people in both camps on my books. When I turn away from the people on both sides who seem to enjoy bickering for its own sake, and turn to the people on both sides who strike me as wise and disinterested seekers of truth, I find myself saying "amen" to approximately 90% of the theology I hear from both of them.
And on the more specific question of whether we can have both "joy of Calvinism" and "joy for the world," I don't think the best and wisest theologians would agree with that regardless of whether they were "neo" or "paleo." Notice the critical difference in pronouns between the two titles. It's not joy "of" the world but joy "for" the world. The believer's joy is fundamentally "of" God, and for those Christians who are Calvinists, joy is also, derivatively, "of" Calvinism, insofar as we think that Calvinism helps us know the love and holiness of God more deeply. But the light of that joy is not supposed to be hidden under a bushel; it's supposed to be put up on a lampstand for all to see. It's supposed to be taken out into the world and offered there. We are supposed to be in the world but not of the world. Well, if we're not of the world, why are we supposed to be in the world? Because we have something for the world.
5) What would your advice be to pastors and church leaders on helping to form leaders to go into the world?
I think there's a widespread interest in this, but too many pastors are stuck at the "interested" stage and haven't taken enough action. I've spoken to many leaders who are encouraging the church to move in this direction and I hear a lot along the lines of: "I have no trouble getting pastors interested in this, but they never seem to do anything about it." So getting a move on and doing something is what I would encourage. Start small, but do start. You can't steer the car while it's parked.
Having lunch with people in their workplaces is a transformative experience for many pastors.
I would say step one is to spend time listening to your congregants about their vocations in their homes, workplaces, and neighborhoods. Go visit them in those places and learn their context. Having lunch with people in their workplaces is a transformative experience for many pastors. Ask how the church can be a place that helps equip them for the challenges they face there.
Study the theology of work—it's a subject that's core to the Bible's narrative literally from beginning to end. Gather your elders and talk about these needs together. Connect with other pastors who are working to reform their churches from promoting "leisure-time Christianity" to "whole-life discipleship." They're not hard to find. Once you get rolling with this, you'll have no difficulty at all finding opportunities to address it in the life of the local church. If you're looking for specific ideas on how the local church body can embrace this, there's a ton of great resources out there.
Daniel Darling is vice-president of communications for the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. He is the author of several books, including his latest, Activist Faith.
