And so to mix one with the other really says, Well, which one is really the more important one, which is the one that we should listen to the most. And today we're saying we should listen to gender more than we should listen to the physical body.
Karl Vaters: Okay. So I'm going to try to oversimplify and if I oversimplify it, let me know.
But just for my clarity and understanding. Is it accurate to say then when we're talking sex, male, female, we're talking biology. When we're talking gender, masculine, feminine, we're talking roles and behaviors?
Vince Gil: That's right. We're talking roles, behaviors. We're talking a whole host of things that have been added on to the sexual physical biology of a person.
Karl Vaters: So let me throw out something fairly non-controversial so that it stays on this subject rather than becoming about something else in our minds. Let's say for instance, in one particular culture, a father hugging his sons is something that is done. All fathers and sons hug each other, that's part of the way they express their love to each other. But in another culture, a father hugging his son is interpreted as feminine, only mom's hug sons, and that's a feminine characteristic. So in the first culture…Sex doesn't change between cultures. But their understanding of gender changes. In the first culture, a father hugging a son is considered masculine, and a part of the masculine gender behavior role. Whereas in the other one that would be considered a feminine general role.
Vince Gil: That's correct. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Karl Vaters: I'm just glad to know I got it right.
Vince Gil: You got it right.
Karl Vaters: This is really challenging stuff to think about.
Vince Gil: It is challenging. And I think because we confound the terms many times and we use it interchangeably, what has happened here is that the body itself is being said not to speak to us. That the real important part of all of this is how we construct the gender part and not necessarily the body. So as a consequence of that, we now have individuals…And I'm calling this sort of gender revolution in a way, because what it's brought together is this idea of expressive individualism.
I'm the one that can determine. My body doesn't determine who I am, my genetics doesn't determine who I am. I'm the one that can determine who I am. Because of gender., I can now say, Well, that's not the label that I really prefer. It's the label that I was given, I'm a male, but I'm really not a male, I don't choose to be a male,and so consequently, now I can redefine myself. In this era of expressive individualism, this is what's being taken over, this is what's happening. And I think that that really challenges a lot of what the church has been saying to us about ourselves and about our bodies for years.