Podcast Episode 21, 44 min
Church Planting For Everyone, with Peyton Jones (ep 021)

To be together, right? We were in the missional movement, the missional communities, moon, that was a bunch of shepherds. That was a shepherding movement. So when you find, you know, the body of Christ fragmenting, everybody grabs her piece of the elephant and says, this is the right way. And I, I think what happened during the church growth movement was it was the evangelist grabbing hold of the elephant and saying, this is success.

Or the prophetic leader stood back and said, well, I remember coming from the mega church world. And I remember when our movement was small people lay hands on each other and pray for one another. And people would, would really get involved in and there'd be like intense prayer. I would occasionally hear someone bust out like a word of prophecy when the size happened, all that stopped.

And I remember looking back thinking I saw someone healed and we were not a crazy church. We were just sustained little. Thing that met in a school, 50 people, but it was a family and we actually saw life change happen. And so, you know, those that were over in the prophetic leadership slice would say, well, we lost something as we grow.

Those are in the shepherding would say, we used to be a family. Those in the teaching might say, well, the teaching is good, but it's a little watered down now because we want more numbers. The mission might've been lost, that little family church might have done incredible things. And so. I would just say the church growth movement was the evangelist and each, each of those different Apess leaders, just to keep it controversial.

Like I do. If you took any one of those different styles of leaders, each one of them comes with a price tag. If you let any one of them go unchecked, it starts looking. I mean, I could spell that out, but I'll offend your entire audience and you

Karl Vaters: do spell it out well in the book, you walk through a whole bunch of that.

And for those who are unfamiliar with Apess is from the fold ministry gifts, apostle prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. Those five gifts need to be operated together for a healthy church rather than simply being led by any one of them that just simply goes off on its own. When you do that, you end up with imbalance.

So basically your take is you're just, anti-Trump growth is.

Peyton Jones: You know, it's funny, you mentioned that. I, you know, I don't know.

Karl Vaters: I, I bring, I bring it up because I guarantee you, some people who heard that opening paragraph, that's what they came away with. Yeah. You have issues with the church growth movement and that there are downsides to it, but some are going to walk away going, well, I guess he's just antitrust.

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