Karl Vaters: Yeah. I don't know that this is particularly explored in the book, but as you're talking, what occurred to me was with the fire department, you don't even have to have been directly affected by the fire department to recognize it’s value. But with the church, it's like, well, I don't go to that church so I don't care. Nobody goes, Well, that fire department has never helped me so I don't care if they shut down.
Jon Sanders: That's good.
Karl Vaters: Even if you've never been directly affected by it, you recognize its essential role that it plays in the community.
Jon Sanders: Hey, you and I should write the next… Like, redo the next newest version and then put your name on it. That's good. And then we'll sell more copies too. So let’s do that.
Karl Vaters: Hey, inspired by you. And it didn't occur to me while reading it, it just occurred to me while you were saying that. There was something you said that sparked that little thought.
But that's really the idea, right? The church not only should be understood to be essential to the people who go to it and who are served by it, but we should be having such an impact on the community that our value to the community is recognized even by people who don't attend our church, they just simply see that church matters here, look at what they're doing. But how far are we from that reality most of the time. So we've got a big gap to fill. So again, I love the idea. What you do is you set up this goal by comparing it with the fire department that I looked at and went, you know, you're right. That is a measurable, and I believe attainable goal because if the fire department could do it, why can't the church, which has eternal value, be seen in the same kind of way. And then you start offering some really practical ways to get there, which obviously we can't cover in a podcast.