{"id":21927,"date":"1997-01-01T00:00:00","date_gmt":"1997-01-01T00:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.christianitytoday.com\/pastors\/1997\/01\/01\/interview-deepening-our-conversation-with-god-part-2\/"},"modified":"1997-01-01T00:00:00","modified_gmt":"1997-01-01T00:00:00","slug":"interview-deepening-our-conversation-with-god-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.christianitytoday.com\/pastors\/content\/interview-deepening-our-conversation-with-god-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview: Deepening Our Conversation with God (part 2)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.christianitytoday.com\/le\/1997\/winter\/7l112a.html\" target=\"_blank\" class=\"\" rel=\"noopener\">Continued from previous page<\/a><\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-question\">But sometimes we feel insecure about all there is to do. How does a pastor\nunlearn running out to do the urgent?<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-answer\"><strong>Foster<\/strong>: I was told in seminary that if I preached from the Old Testament,\nI should study the Hebrew text. If I preached from the New Testament, I should\nstudy the Greek text. I was told to spend time each week working on my sermon\ndelivery. Pastoral counseling, they told me, is crucial to my ministry.\n\nI added up the time it takes to do all these things; the total was staggering.\nOnce in the ministry, I found out quickly that those things might build churches,\nbut they don&#8217;t necessarily help people. I had to go back to square one and\nask, &#8220;What am I to do?&#8221;\n\nThe answer that came was &#8220;Love God and walk with him.&#8221; Once the pastor is\nsettled and centered on that, the guilt feelings are gone.\n<strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: It may well be that many pastors are insecure people, but\nthat can be an asset as well as a liability. Insecure people need social\ncontact. Many people with that kind of personality might choose the ministry\nbecause that is a way of dealing with their need. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s bad.\n\nOne of the most beautiful ways for spiritual formation to take place is to\nlet your insecurity lead you closer to the Lord. Natural hypersensitivity\ncan become an asset; it makes you aware of your need to be with people and\nit allows you to be more willing to look at their needs. In a sense, you\nlet your psychological trembling become trembling for the Lord; and you use\nthe insecurity of human relationships to develop a firm relationship with\nGod.\n<strong>Foster<\/strong>: The disciples are some of the best examples of that.\n<strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: Your insecurity may be neurotic, but it may also lead to a\nvery deep spiritual life. Instead of telling clergy, &#8220;You&#8217;re insecure; that&#8217;s\nwhy you became pastors,&#8221; we should tell them, &#8220;Your insecurity is a vocation;\nit&#8217;s an invitation to really live the spiritual life.&#8221;\n<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-question\">How can ministers accept their insecurity that way?<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-answer\"><strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: You need a person with whom you feel free to be insecure.\nLet me paint a picture. You&#8217;re in a big room with a six-inch-wide balance\nbeam in the center. Now the balance beam is only twelve inches off the fully\ncarpeted floor. Most of us act as if we were blindfolded and trying to walk\non that balance beam; we&#8217;re afraid we&#8217;ll fall off. But we don&#8217;t realize we&#8217;re\nonly twelve inches off the floor.\n\nThe spiritual director is someone who can push you off that balance beam\nand say, &#8220;See? It&#8217;s okay. God still loves you.&#8221; Take that nervousness about\nwhether you&#8217;re going to succeed and whether you have enough money-take the\nwhole thing up on that narrow beam and just fall off.\n<strong>Foster<\/strong>: That&#8217;s one of the great values of reading the saints. They\nhad this utter vulnerability to fail by human standards.\n<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-question\">We&#8217;ve talked a lot about prayer. How do you look at prayer?<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-answer\"><strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: Prayer is first of all listening to God. It&#8217;s openness. God\nis always speaking; he&#8217;s always doing something. Prayer is to enter into\nthat activity.\n\nTake this room. Imagine you&#8217;ve never been out of it. Prayer is like going\noutside to see what&#8217;s really there. Prayer in its most basic sense is just\nentering into an attitude of saying, &#8220;Lord, what are you saying to me?&#8221;\n<strong>Foster<\/strong>: The problem with describing prayer as <em>speaking<\/em> to God\nis that it implies we are still in control. But in listening, we let go.\nPeople are tired of hearing about &#8220;Ten Steps that Will Change Your Life.&#8221;\n\nThe spiritual life is not something we add onto an already busy life. What\nwe are talking about is to impregnate and infiltrate and control what we\nalready do with an attitude of service to God. For pastors, this might mean\nsilent prayer in their board meetings. One of the greatest revelations to\nme was to experiment with being in communion with God in board meetings.\nI learned I didn&#8217;t always have to speak and control and that I could pray\nfor people in the room who had a heaviness with life.\n\nI also think it&#8217;s very important what we think about in the evening before\nwe go to sleep, and in the morning as we wake up. So many of us allow the\nlate news to dictate what we think about when we go to bed.\n<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-question\">What&#8217;s involved in centering your thoughts on God?<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-answer\"><strong>Foster<\/strong>: My boys and I built a basketball standard by our driveway.\nI go out alone at ten at night and shoot baskets. It&#8217;s a time to pray. As\nI shoot baskets, I invite God to remind me of my day. Are there things that\nneed to be confessed? Was I curt to my secretary? Do I need to set something\nstraight?\n\nIn the morning I&#8217;ve been experimenting with prayer during that period of\njust starting to wake up. You aren&#8217;t fully conscious, but you aren&#8217;t fully\nasleep; during that in-between period I try to surrender my day to God.\n<strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: People who live a spiritual life become sensitive to their\nsurroundings. Notice their houses; they are uncluttered. Your physical place\nbecomes more spacious when your life is lived spiritually. The idea of going\non a retreat for prayer is crucial, but we also need to pray daily. It&#8217;s\nnot only important to set aside time to pray, but also a place to pray. I\nhave a special place where I spend a predetermined amount of time. The only\nreason to be there is to pray. After the time is up, I can say, &#8220;Lord, this\nwas my prayer, even if my mind was full of confusion.&#8221;\n<strong>Foster<\/strong>: To increase the spiritual atmosphere of our home, we don&#8217;t\nanswer the telephone when we are eating or if I&#8217;m reading stories to the\nchildren, because I want my boys to know they are more important than the\ntelephone.\n<strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: The obvious assumption of always answering the phone is that\nthe person on the phone has something more important to say than what you\nare saying-which is not true. The same applies to the television. My mother\nalways said, &#8220;I don&#8217;t understand why you tolerate this stranger to talk in\nthe middle of my room. We didn&#8217;t invite him. Turn him off.&#8221;\n<strong>Foster<\/strong>: Another suggestion for discipline is to tell people not only\nwhen a meeting starts, but when it ends. I don&#8217;t mean only business meetings,\nbut social meetings too. I always invite students from eight to ten in the\nevening. At ten I say, &#8220;Let&#8217;s close with prayer.&#8221;\n<strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: Prayer involves the body. It can be done in many different\npostures. You can stand, kneel, lie flat, hold hands, lie in bed, or sit\nin a chair. Sometimes your mind is too tired to concentrate in the right\nway, and your body position can get you in the proper frame of mind.\n<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-question\">What about the content of prayer?<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-answer\"><strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: Too many Christians think prayer means to have spiritual thoughts.\nThat&#8217;s not it. Prayer means to bring into the presence of God all that you\nare. You can say, &#8220;God, I hate this guy, I can&#8217;t stand him.&#8221; The prayer life\nof most people is too selective. They usually present only those things to\nGod they want him to know or think he can handle. But God can handle everything.\n<strong>Foster<\/strong>: Not long ago, a lady said to me, &#8220;I can&#8217;t pray for more than\ntwo minutes at a time. What can I do?&#8221;\nWhen people say that, I reply, &#8220;What have you been thinking or worrying about\nthis last week? Pray about that.&#8221;\n<strong>Nouwen<\/strong>: Convert your thoughts into prayer. As we are involved in unceasing\nthinking, so we are called to unceasing prayer. The difference is not that\nprayer is thinking about other things, but that prayer is thinking in dialogue.\nIt is a move from self-centered monologue to a conversation with God.\n<\/p><p class=\"is-style-article-copyright\">1997 by Christianity Today\/<em>Leadership<\/em> Journal.<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Continued from previous pageBut sometimes we feel insecure about all there is to do. How does a pastor unlearn running out to do the urgent?Foster: I was told in seminary that if I preached from the Old Testament, I should study the Hebrew text. If I preached from the New Testament, I should study the <a class=\"more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.christianitytoday.com\/pastors\/content\/interview-deepening-our-conversation-with-god-part-2\/\">Read more&#8230;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":30,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"tax_ctp_authors":[],"tax_ctp_books":[],"tax_ctp_categories":[154],"tax_ctp_field_guide_subcategory":[],"tax_ctp_field_guides":[],"tax_ctp_format":[131],"tax_ctp_multimedia":[],"tax_ctp_point_editor":[],"tax_publications":[653,156,657],"tax_ctp_tags":[3535,3761,4459,4679,4708,4822,4867,4974,5042,5043,5046,5065],"tax_ctp_topics":[],"class_list":["post-21927","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","tax_publications-1997-leadership-journal","tax_publications-leadership-journal","tax_publications-winter_1997-leadership-journal","tax_ctp_tags-busyness","tax_ctp_tags-dependence-on-god","tax_ctp_tags-mentoring","tax_ctp_tags-prayer","tax_ctp_tags-priorities","tax_ctp_tags-rest","tax_ctp_tags-sabbath","tax_ctp_tags-silence","tax_ctp_tags-spiritual-direction","tax_ctp_tags-spiritual-discipline","tax_ctp_tags-spiritual-formation","tax_ctp_tags-spirituality"],"acf":{"scripture_references":null},"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v22.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Interview: Deepening Our Conversation with God (part 2) - CT Pastors<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Continued from previous pageBut sometimes we feel insecure about all there is to do. 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