Eighteen years ago, Dave Gibbons launched Newsong church in Orange County, California, which quickly grew to mega-status, utilizing popular program-driven growth strategies. But a series of experiences in the Majority World (documented in a previous Leadership Journal interview "On the Verge") plus his own weariness led Gibbons to seek a more central role for the Holy Spirit in his life and church.
Without jettisoning its evangelical identity, Newsong started putting greater emphasis on prayer and the present power of the Spirit. The adjustments initially resulted in declining attendance, but Gibbons says "a new church emerged with a new dynamism." The church is now seeing regular healing and deliverance as people grow in their discipleship. Skye Jethani spoke with Gibbons about spiritual warfare and his journey toward a greater understanding of the Holy Spirit.
Why are so many church leaders reluctant to talk about spiritual warfare?
We see the way spiritual gifts and practices are abused in some churches and media ministries, and we want to stay away from that. In addition, there is a theological construct that says certain gifts and signs don't exist today. While we say we believe in miracles, we're not sure how it plays out in our churches.
Is the hesitation to talk about spiritual warfare linked to our discomfort acknowledging the supernatural?
People started coming to our church just to be trained in prayer. There was an atmospheric change. You could feel it.
Almost every Christian would acknowledge some type of spiritual struggle and supernatural activity. The question is how you engage it. My rather strict evangelical background taught me to pray against evil and to seek God's guidance—primarily with the Word of God. Both of those are crucial, but there's another element—utilizing the power of the Holy Spirit. That's what we often neglect because we are not comfortable with the Spirit's role, not trained to listen to him. Our tendency is to enter into theological debates about the supernatural or make the role of the Holy Spirit into an academic study. I'm not sure if many of us are practically shown how to minister with the Spirit. We focus on prayer and the Word but have virtually no practical understanding of the demonic or how God equips you through the Spirit to live life to the fullest—without fear!
Speaking of your rather strict background, when did you first encounter a different view of the Spirit's role?
When I was dating my wife. Her mother was from a Pentecostal background. I remember seeing people jumping, dancing, and running around in the service. I thought, This is just so weird. Since "God is not the author of confusion," I assumed that what I was seeing must not be of God. But my definition of confusion was narrow.
Later I was asked by a friend if he could pray that I would receive some special giftings. I said sure. Little did I know how loud he would pray in this very public place in my hometown. After a few minutes of his loud prayer, I couldn't hear what he was saying because I was so embarrassed.
Eventually, I heard an inner voice, "Aww, David, you're more concerned about what people think of you than receiving my power for you." I knew at that moment that I was filled with a need for public approval. I had a fear of man. Since that day, I've had a new boldness and confidence I can't quite explain.
How did your understanding of the Holy Spirit begin to shift?
It's been a long, slow process. After I started Newsong in 1994, I went through a difficult period in the church's second year. I was at a prayer conference and several pastors from Southern California got together and prayed for me. They all laid hands on me, but most of them started preaching to me through their prayers. I thought, Why are they preaching at me instead of praying to God?
But one older pastor from a more Spirit-led background sensed what was happening. He stood up and said, "Do you mind if I pray for you again?" During his prayer something happened. It was different. And he gave me a couple of insights he thought were from God for me. I'd never experienced anything like that. He was gentle, aware of my uneasiness, and offered unique insights that clearly fit my situation.
Years later, in another difficult season, my family and I left California and moved to Bangkok, Thailand, for a year. Bangkok literally means "city of angels," just like Los Angeles. It's common there to believe in spirits. Since spirit houses are outside most of the structures in Thailand, you naturally become more aware of the spiritual realm.
Strange things happened in our family and ministry team in Bangkok. People were having dreams and visions. Our children told me what they were seeing in the air or in their rooms. We had never experienced the spiritual realm like that before. We began praying more intensely. Then a woman with cancer was miraculously healed. I had always believed that that sort of thing was possible, but I'd never experienced it.
Prayer became a more active part of our ministry as we believed in and depended more on the power of the Spirit. New leaders started showing up with a greater emphasis on the Spirit and prayer. People started coming to our church just to be trained in prayer. There was an atmospheric change. You could feel it. A new church was emerging. It wasn't as program-driven, but there was a flowing, a dynamism to our services, a hunger to know God, his word, to encounter him supernaturally!
Explain what you mean by that. How did your worship change?
We started asking ourselves, "Do we really believe the Holy Spirit is alive, real, and active right now? And if we do, what does that mean for the way we do our programs and Sunday mornings? How can we demonstrate that we believe in the Holy Spirit to comfort, heal, guide, and speak to us?" We concluded that it would mean giving time for the Spirit to work; giving space for people to experience him, not just through a sermon but through space for divine serendipity.
But our Sunday schedule was so tightly planned by the minute because of multiple services that we had no room to do that. So we decided to drop one service so that we could have more time for prayer and encounters with God. We knew we would drop in attendance initially but felt in the long run this is what church was to be about: unhurried, expectant, supernatural, patient for God to move.
We started inviting people forward so that we could affirm them and pray for their needs. Personal prayer used to be available in a side room, but we decided to make it something all could respond to. The first time we did it, many people came forward, and to this day people don't want to leave the service. Many linger and soak in God's presence. We are getting emails and notes telling us the variety of healing taking place. Others talk about the growth of their relationship with Jesus!
Has it all been positive?
When you're more open to the reality of the spiritual realm, you're not just going to see healings and miracles. Other challenges are involved. One temptation is to hype something that is not really happening. Yet when one thinks of any gifts, even the gift of preaching/teaching, we need to give people space to learn, to make mistakes. And we need to help people discern what may be of God and what isn't.
Other uncomfortable things are happening now. People who are demonized have manifested, talking loudly or yelling in the middle of the service! We don't want to shame anyone in these situations, though Satan desires to disrupt and shame. So our team escorts them to a room for private prayer.
How have you personally learned to engage the Holy Spirit in your ministry?
I've grown a lot in my awareness of the Spirit's presence and voice. I don't think I have the best ability at it, but sometimes I get a vibe, an intuition about a person, that there is a spiritual struggle. It may sound odd, but that's developed in me over the years.
I may be talking to a person, for instance, and I can sense that there's more than just loneliness or confusion or fear or psychological brokenness. Sometimes there's a demonic side, an affliction, or some kind of spiritual oppression.
Or there have been times I've encountered Muslims, Buddhists, or agnostics whom I've never met before, and I'll get an insight about them. I share it with them.
Shocked, they'll say, "How do you know me?" I believe this is from the Holy Spirit. It helps me know how to pray for them and how to help. And for them it's huge! It says to them that God sees them, knows them, and cares for them. We are all born with a desire to be known.
Are some leaders more ready to explore this than others? And what makes the difference?
Absolutely. With me, ministry became essentially the same every week: sermon prep, leadership development, minute by minute programmed services, executing our strategies. It seemed too formulaic after awhile. The mystery of a relationship with God seemed lost.
We have an amazing youth ministry, the best schools in america, and the safest city in america. Yet our church was devoid of the wildness of god.
Another thing that makes a difference is brokenness. I'm not sure we initially choose first to lean into the Holy Spirit. But when we come to a place where we cannot rely upon ourselves anymore, we become more open to God's Spirit. We tend not to choose extreme pain or complete brokenness, but it chooses us. God uses those hard times to transform us, or at least get our attention.
That happened to me. One day it became tangible to me when I saw what happened with my children. There was no way they could be changed unless God intervened in their lives. I had to rely entirely upon him. We have an amazing youth ministry, the best schools in America, and the safest city in America. Yet our church was devoid of the wildness of God.
If a pastor has come to that place, and has experienced the reality of the Spirit's presence, how should he try to introduce the congregation to these ideas?
Start with prayer! That in itself is an acknowledgment of the supernatural! Begin with your personal journey, because it has to be real with you. Maybe take a couple of trusted friends with you. Be cautious; otherwise you may frighten people away.
Respect the institution's history and vision. If the church isn't really open to the work of the Holy Spirit in practice and you're confident you're not the one to graciously disrupt this, then it may be better for you to humbly leave. If you stay, be generous, patient, understanding, and expect critics and fluctuations in attendance. But respect the body and honor the local church and who they believe they are called to be in that place.
Be careful with your language. The language used in some ministry cultures creates more fear and uneasiness than necessary. So I recommend using terms that make sense to our crew. Instead of "prophecy," say "illumination" or "God can give you an insight." Or just explain what you mean.
Be humble. Admit you don't understand it completely. Be quick to tell others that you're trying it out just like they are.
Then, create safe venues, laboratories for people to engage the Holy Spirit where they can opt in or out. We had special prayer training on healings, demonization, prophesying way before we went public with it during our weekend services. Mainly because I wasn't comfortable with it!
Next, challenge the children, the middle schoolers, the high school students, college students, and young adults to this supernatural life. They are enjoying the superficial stuff of movies that depict the supernatural. Why go to a movie when we can experience the real thing?
Make sure in the midst of the subjective to engage in continued deep study of the Scriptures. It's the primary way God speaks to us. At Newsong we're currently walking through the book of Acts verse by verse. We hope to better understand the Spirit's role today.
This is an amazing season in history, with a spiritual responsiveness that's gaining momentum in America, Asia, South America, and beyond. May God stir in us a desire to be part of what he is doing!
To go deeper, see our recommended resources on spiritual warfare.
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