Scott Sauls is the senior pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Recently Scott wrote Jesus Outside the Lines: A Way Forward for Those Who are Tired of Taking Sides. We spoke with Scott about what it means for Christians to pursue unity based on how Jesus interacted with those who didn't agree with him.
1) In the intro to the book, you say you are "tired" from the constant partisanship in our country, much of it conducted by Christians. Do you think the sometimes harsh tone of our engagement has harmed our gospel witness?
I’m not the only one who is tired. I think most Christians have come to believe that a harsh tone is not helpful to our gospel witness. How many times have we heard someone say they came into a relationship with Jesus because a Christian scolded or lectured them? Having been a Christian for 27 years and a minister for 18, I have still not met one. Scripture is clear that as far as Christians are concerned, our words are to be seasoned with salt and full of grace toward those who don’t believe as we do. Paul goes so far as to say in Colossians that our words must always be gracious. “Always” is a pretty comprehensive word, yes? To be faithful not only to the message but also the manner of Jesus, we need to find a way to a) remain true to our biblically based beliefs and convictions, b) genuinely love, listen to, and serve people who do not share our convictions, and c) do both consistently at the same time. When we do this, the outcomes should be similar as they were with Jesus. We will be attractive to the watching world or, as Acts puts it, “enjoy the favor of all the people.” The chief exception to this will be power people who are threatened by gospel kindness, and proud religious folk who don’t have a category for grace.
2) And yet you also say, towards the end of the book, that in seeking truth, we have to take sides. What is the grid Christians should use when thinking through how to engage controversial issues?
I really like what Tim Keller says on this one. When talking about tolerance, Tim says that true tolerance is not about abandoning our convictions. True tolerance is about how our convictions lead us to treat people who disagree with us. In other words, anyone who is really on the side of truth will by nature be a gracious person because grace and truth go together. In terms of the “grid” Christians should use when engaging controversial issues, I think we need to keep our discussion topics ordered rightly. When it’s assumed that everybody in the conversation identifies as a follower of Jesus, any and every contested ethical issue can and should be resolved by a careful look at Scripture. Paul does this with the Corinthians when there is sexual immorality in their ranks. His instruction to them is to not let it continue, to confront the issue head-on because any sin against the law of God is also a sin against the love of God.
Engaging controversial issues with non-believers and skeptics calls for a different approach. Take Jesus’ interaction with the woman caught in adultery, for example. Before he addresses her ethics, he assures her that she is not condemned. He does the same with Zaccheus. He tells Zaccheus that he wants to eat with him (again, offering relationship first), after which time Zaccheus pledges to right the wrongs he has committed and to stop stealing. “I do not condemn you. Now go leave your life of sin.” Reverse the order of these two sentences and you lose Christianity. God’s kindness leads to repentance. People will only love his law and his ethics when they sense that God is for them, not against them.
How many times have we heard someone say they came into a relationship with Jesus because a Christian scolded or lectured them?
3) You are also concerned with the way we engage. Why is our tone so important?
Christ took a gracious tone toward us while we were still sinning against him. “God demonstrates his own love toward us in this; while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). If this is the reality we are living inside of, does it make any sense to have anything but a gracious tone toward people who don’t believe as we do and who don’t share our ethics? Jesus didn’t just tell us to love our enemies; he loved us and bled out for us when we were his enemies. His is a ministry of reconciliation that breaks dividing walls down instead of erecting them. I think that Christians should be among the least offensive people in the world. I also thing we should be very difficult to offend.
4) As you survey the next generation of evangelical leaders, do you see a generational shift in political engagement?
It’s probably too early to tell but things seem to be trending in that direction for sure. Baby Boomer evangelicals were, and in most cases still are, decidedly red state in their political leanings. Millennial evangelicals seem to be shifting rapidly toward more of a blue state position. I think that the important thing to recognize is that both positions are flawed and both have positive things about them too. This is true of any human system.
I think that the most important question here is not what a person’s political beliefs are, as much as how much they have identified their politics with what they regard as the essentials of their faith. If I feel more kindred with those who share my politics but not my faith than I do with those who share my faith but not my politics, it is likely that I am rendering to Caesar what belongs to God. Mature Christians recognize and appreciate that Jesus had political diversity within his tribe of twelve disciples, including an anti-government zealot (Simon) and a government employee (Matthew). Jews and Gentiles were also socio-political opposites yet we constantly see the New Testament writers calling them into community with one another. Jesus prays that they would be one. How can he do this? Because his kingdom is not of this world.
Christ took a gracious tone toward us while we were still sinning against him.
5) How would you counsel pastors and church leaders as they think through how to preach on and activate their people toward just causes?
I think it’s important that we pastors and church leaders always have the words of Martin Luther King, Jr. ringing in our ears, that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We need to be teaching and mobilizing our people for comprehensive justice versus partial justice.
Daniel Darling is vice-president of communications for the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. He is the author of several books, including his latest, Activist Faith.
