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It's one of the most demeaning, barbaric things to think of human beings as a lump of inert coal that can be fired on with a ray gun called motivation. Great companies find people who are intrinsically self-motivated. If they're only motivated because someone motivated them, they're the wrong people. The key in management is not to de-motivate people who are motivated.

Motivation is not the same as affirmation, however. I have wonderful people here who don't need motivation. But I like to affirm them when I can. Still, have you ever had a great professor who didn't affirm but for whom you worked your butt off? People want to be in an environment with the highest standard; it inspires them. Being someplace where you can feel proud of your organization is inspiring.

So, what really makes a place the right place to work? First, the values. Second, the people who connect with those values, and then third—that the model and system and all the work produce real results.

What trends did you notice in Good to Great companies' treatment of employees?

First of all, there's no evidence that a company has to have concern for its employees as a core value. There are a number of inherently great companies that didn't have this. I don't think Walt Disney cared about his people. He cared about films, and Disneyland, and smiles of kids. On the other side, with Hewlett-Packard and IBM, you had the antithesis of Walt Disney. When you look at corporate history, what matters is not what core values you have but that you have core values. And that you believe them.

There are two sides to that coin. If you don't have concern for employees as a core value, don't say that you do. That will cause more harm. Fundamentally, if your value system is the mission, then be honest about it and pursue it fanatically. The other side of the coin is equally important: there's no evidence that you're at a competitive disadvantage if you do have a tremendous concern for your people. You can have a great company having that as a core value. So the real question is, what are your company values? Live them fanatically.

What are the typical barriers to becoming a Level 5 leader?

The question regarding Level 5 is, which side is harder for you? The humility or the will? The magic of Level 5 is the combination of the two, not just one or the other. One side is usually harder for people than the other. Sometimes it takes brutally hard decisions to be Level 5. What if Abraham Lincoln could not stomach the consequences of his being Level 5, which was to endure five years of the bloodiest conflict so that our nation could live? Would you do whatever is needed for the cause?

If your struggle is on humility side, have people track your questions-to-statements ratio. You should see that ratio go up over time. Another thing is to really practice the discipline of the window and the mirror. Give credit to people outside the window and look at the mirror when things go wrong. As for the will: when you come to a fork in the road, one side is about being comfortable, and the other is about the cause, or the mission, or the work. You know that the best thing for the cause is to go one way, but the more comfortable decision for you is to step right. The key is to try to keep increasing your tendency to step left.

Has writing this book had any impact on you?

The book changed me more than Built to Last. On every dimension, it changed me. I find Level 5 challenging for me. The standard is enormously compelling. And for me the "who" question is now the most significant. I think about it whenever I make decisions, whether it's who to hire or who to have renovate my kitchen. It's all about "who."

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March (Web-only) 2003, Vol. 47