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Jim Collins's book Good to Great has been a favorite among church leaders since it appeared in 2001. Six years of research resulted in a well-crafted and captivating account of what enables some companies to go from good to great and what prevents others from doing so. The popularity of the book, coupled with his ability to craft clear explanations for complex issues, has helped Collins become the dean of corporate advisers.

Though the research for Good to Great focused on businesses, the book found traction in the not-for-profit world. Leaders of churches, hospitals, schools, museums, and charities sought to adapt these lessons from the business world to their organizations.

After learning that about one-third of those buying Good to Great were dealing with the unique dynamics of the non-profit world, Collins recently published a 35-page monograph, Good to Great and the Social Sectors. We interviewed Collins to ask about the implications for churches.

How did you learn about great church leadership?

Well, I have to begin by understating my expertise when it comes to churches. I don't presume to know the church world better than those who live and lead in it.

What I did for the monograph was take the framework of Good to Great, and puzzle with people from churches, be they good or great, and ask, "How are your contextual realities different, and what would you want to know the answer to?" I wanted to know how the lessons of Good to Great look in social sector organizations where their fundamental contribution to the world cannot be priced at a profit.

How do you define "greatness" in a church?

Greatness does not equal bigness. Big is not great and great is not big. In fact, the bigger you become the harder it may be to remain great.

For my purposes, an organization must have three things to qualify as great:

1. Superior performance relative to its mission in the world.

2. A distinctive impact on its community. So you'd say, "If this church disappeared, it would leave a serious hole in this community."

3. Endurance. Making an impact over a long enough time, so that it's not dependent on the personality of one leader. If a church is effective during one pastorate, it may be a church with a stellar pastor, but it is not yet a great church.

How does business sector greatness differ from church greatness?

The biggest distinction is the role of money. In the business world, money works both as a fuel to achieve greatness and as a measure of greatness. By definition, you're not a great Olympic runner if you don't win gold medals; you're not a great NFL team if you don't win Super Bowls; you're not a great company if you don't deliver great financial returns.

But in a church, money is only a means or an enabler of true performance, which is successfully reaching people with the message, creating a sense of community, and contributing to the community.

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