I cannot recall, in any of my reading, a single instance of a prophet who applied for the job.
A. W. Tozer
Some practical hints can make finding a church easier. Douglas Scott, rector of Saint Martin’s Episcopal Church, Radnor, Pennsylvania, has worked out a valuable process for candidating, a process born after several bouts at the only slightly sanctified negotiating table.
“Being in a highly structured church,” he says, “I had a lot of help the first time out. I was going to be a shared person between my bishop’s staff and a congregation in the Philadelphia area. I got a call one day from someone in the bishop’s office saying, ‘We’re going to get together with you, the bishop, and the rector from the church and hammer out a good working agreement.’
“I went determined to be as tough as George Meany—and ended up saying about two words the whole session. I sat in the corner while my future was thrown onto the table and apportioned between two parties. I felt like a pawn. I never got a chance to say, ‘These are my skills, this is my training, these are my gifts.'”
The next time around, Scott was applying for an assistant post.
“This was my first real interview, and like all young clergy, I was excited about finally seeing my gifts and talents appreciated and used. I fully expected to be able to work out the Lord’s ministry jointly. What I really found was myself in the middle of a debate about whether my appearance, politics, and taste in popular music would fit this congregation.
“After several experiences like this, you become a little cynical about the process. I did. And that’s why I wrote this chapter on candidating and interviewing. I had heard so many clergy who were embittered by the process. Too many end up feeling like a piece of raw meat. Anyone is allowed to take a slap at the meat to see if it’s firm enough to hold up under pressure.
“You’re there because after a tremendous amount of training and prayer, the Lord has led you to this place. You quickly find you’re one of eighty whom the Lord has led to this place.
“How can the pastor get hold of this process? The pastor needs an edge. Otherwise he or she has a good chance of being semibrutalized, and the ministry demeaned to boot.
“Remember, this is not like applying for a teller’s job at a bank. It’s different in two ways, one practical, the other spiritual. Practically, when you apply for a teller’s position, you talk to one person, maybe two. You quickly get an idea of what the person wants and what the situation calls for. Definite parameters are set. In churches, you walk into a room with as many as thirty-five people; you have little opportunity to find out what joys, hopes, and fears each of them brings to the interview; you’re adrift. You don’t know what’s coming and have no control.
“Spiritually, God is at work in this process, as bad and flawed as it is. I’ve been to a lot of interviews now, and I’m astounded at how frequently the Spirit surrounds the most difficult of situations.
“I’ve also learned that the Spirit seems even more real and present if you’ve done your homework and prayed about the interview.”
In the following chapter, Scott outlines what that homework entails.
I took a deep breath to push the fatigue from my mind and body. After traveling seven hours, my wife and I were now holding cups of strong coffee, surrounded by thirty people, and trying to connect names with faces.
They examined us closely, some smiling, some sizing us up like wary customers looking for a used car. Four months of correspondence, telephone conversations, research, and prayer had brought us to this moment. Every facet of my life would soon be explored publicly. I knew I would need the endurance of a distance runner just to withstand this evening. I was being interviewed.
The church, a major congregation in the South, was looking for a senior pastor. They had sent me a bulky package of materials—results of a congregational self-study, membership statistics, a statement of mission and purpose, and comprehensive financial reports for the previous five years.
I, in turn, had provided them with my background and experience.
We had planned our three-day interview trip with surgical precision—the children were with my parents in Philadelphia, the dog housed at a kennel, the airline connections engineered so my absence would not be missed, and other clergy covering for me. It had been expensive and exhausting, but we were excited about the possibilities.
As we moved to our chairs, front and center, I prayed for discernment, knowing our conversations the next three days might well affect the rest of our lives. The chairman stood to begin the discussion.
Looking at me over the tops of his reading glasses, he said, “Before we begin, I want y’all to know I had to live up with Yankees for a year back in 1965, and I didn’t like it one bit! What makes you think you’re gonna be happy livin’ down here?”
My wife and I exchanged glances and knew at once—it was all over.
That interview, at least, left no doubt about the congregation’s attitudes—which is better than search committees and candidates performing a verbal dance trying to appear as attractive as possible in the ecclesiastical mating ritual. Often discussion is merely an exchange of theological pleasantries, with the tragic result that congregation and pastor don’t really know each other. At best, this means the first year is spent discovering the truth. At worst, such a flawed process makes everyone disillusioned when unexpected attitudes, ideas, and commitments surface only after the pastor arrives.
How can candidates improve the situation? Can the interview itself be a constructive and even enjoyable process?
Yes. Approached carefully, the interview is an effective tool for discerning expectations. The committee may not have thought back further than the former pastor’s resignation, and their forward vision may be limited to moving the new one into the manse. They may be mired in the moment, uncertain where they want to go. At your interview, you can minister to them, as well as help discern if this invitation is of God, by exploring their history as God’s people in a particular place, helping them focus their present concerns and expand their vision of the future.
The Approach
Upon being invited to interview, one of the first things you must make clear is that you’ll be asking a number of questions yourself and that you expect your questions to take at least an hour. Set the interview time accordingly.
Do not assume that they expect you to ask questions. I was once the last of six candidates to interview with a particular church, but the first to ask any questions. After our conversation, one committee member said, “We were surprised you had questions about coming here! We assumed our church was so attractive any clergyman would be glad to come. I don’t know if you are the right one for us, but you were the only candidate who forced us to think about what kind of minister our church needs.”
You will want to raise three types of questions:
1. Questions of census try to discover who the congregation is—the talents, interests, and commitments these people bring to church. Questions of census also look beyond the congregation to the area it serves. Does the church draw its members from the surrounding community? Have there been major demographic shifts in the past ten years, and if so, how has the church addressed these shifts? Do these trends indicate future changes? Is housing in the area affordable for young couples? If not, what is the potential for church growth?
2. Every congregation also has particular issues you’ll need to know about. Some are low-risk, pleasantly discussed questions of theory; others are powder kegs. Is the church inwardor outward-looking? Have changes in worship practice disrupted the congregation? Was there (or is there) any contention over the previous pastor? Have there been theological or practical divisions? Has a building program alienated anyone? Just as questions of census cannot be divorced from the community at large, neither can questions of issues. Has the school district been affected by busing? Is the community racially, economically, and socially integrated? If so, is the congregation? Are crime rates increasing? Candidates must explore the social context to understand issues within the church.
3. Questions centering on structures attempt to discover both the formal and the hidden networks in the congregation. But they also can probe beyond this particular congregation. Are relations with neighboring churches friendly? Has this church been involved with ecumenical worship, educational, or fellowship programs? Are there strong ties between this congregation and the district, presbytery, or diocese? If the congregation is nonaligned, is there an active clergy association in the community for fellowship and support?
The interview is the time for hard and honest statement. If you expect the church to increase your salary by 15 percent every year, this is the time to tell them so. If you will be disappointed by a midweek service of less than 50 percent of the congregation, explain that now!
Why? Congregational expectations of the clergy beyond the written job description (if there is one) are so erratic they are impossible to state accurately. Some parishioners will expect an eighty-hour work week from you; others will want you to spend significant time with your family. The selection committee cannot represent all the congregational expectations, but they will probably suggest trends.
Many clergy bristle when asked if their spouse will accompany them on the interview. Terse statements are frequently made (“You are hiring me, not my wife!”), which, while true, will not endear you to the committee. Personally, I consider my wife a tremendous asset at a job interview. She has the ability to discern attitudes while I am embroiled in answering questions. In addition, she enjoys having the opportunity to meet the individuals involved—after all, she will have to live with them too! However, many wives (or husbands) feel uncomfortable in this situation and may resent being asked. The wisest policy is to tell the committee graciously that your spouse will (or will not) be accompanying you, whichever is your preference.
Before the Committee
As the interview begins, ask if you might begin with prayer if someone else has not already done so. If you are the one to pray, let your prayer speak to the situation; don’t try to impress them with your ability at extemporaneous praying. One honest “Lord Jesus, quiet our anxious hearts” will do more than a thousand “we beseech thee of thy gracious favors.”
I believe both candidate and committee are best served if the committee asks their questions first. That way, you can modify yours to follow up on issues they have raised. Your agenda includes not only your concerns but also ministering to their needs.
Preface your questions with a statement that some of the answers you seek are matters of fact, but others are matters of feeling, specifically their feelings. As a result, you realize there may be different answers to one question, and you welcome that diversity of opinion.
It is important to have a list of prepared questions based on your understanding of the congregation rather than appearing to ask questions off the cuff. The best kind of spontaneity, someone once said, is the well-planned kind.
While you may be tempted to deal with specific events, statistics, and services, resist the urge to focus on too narrow an area. While there are no perfect “canned” questions for each interview, I would recommend the following approach. Some questions may be useful the way they are; others will need modification depending on the situation.
The primary purpose is to allow committee members to verbalize their attitudes and expectations. You will find it far more helpful to understand their likes and dislikes than their financial condition for the last ten years.
Questions to Ask
Why am I of particular interest to you?
Start with this question. You are not fishing for compliments, but it helps to know if they’re excited about you as their potential pastor. You also need to know why you are of real interest. The answer may surprise you!
I interviewed with one congregation who confessed (after I asked) that they weren’t really interested, but the bishop had asked them to contact me, and they felt obliged to do so. Once I knew that, we were able to talk in depth about their particular situation. As a result, they were able to clarify some issues in congregational life they had not seen prior to my visit.
What has been the most significant event in the life of this congregation since you have been a member?
The question serves two purposes. First, you discover what events are significant to them, which helps both you and the committee focus on future expectations. In addition, you see what ministries this congregation considers significant. Do their responses focus on worship activities? Social functions? Outreach programs? Would you characterize any of those events as significant if they happened in your church?
Aside from the upheaval of looking for a new pastor, what has been the most upsetting event in the life of this church?
Unless this congregation is highly unusual, there has probably never been a public opportunity for members to express their frustration, disappointment, and anger. While they may have had plenty of private (and potentially divisive) opportunities, your question allows them to voice their pain openly. It also allows you the luxury of future vision—that is, knowing what is likely to upset them in the years ahead.
In your opinion, what areas of concern need to be addressed by this congregation?
Delightfully nonspecific, this question may be the perfect invitation for a committee member to open an issue that is unresolved or unrecognized. You must, however, be prepared to bring the group back to your agenda should they spend too much time on isolated concerns.
This question once evoked a heated argument within one search committee over a question of property maintenance. When we pursued it further, I discovered fully half the members expected the pastor to mow the church lawn in summer and shovel the snow in winter.
What kinds of things did your former pastor do particularly well?
Certain questions regarding your predecessor are fair territory as long as you refer to him with respect and treat his ministry with courtesy and honor. Your kindness in asking this question will be appreciated. It allows those present to celebrate their former pastor in a specific way—by holding up his or her particular gifts in ministry. It also allows you to see what aspects of ministry were well received, including tasks that may be expected of you.
What were the circumstances surrounding your former pastor’s departure?
You may already know the answer, having heard through the grapevine. But unless the former pastor died in office, it is a good idea to ask so the committee can state the reasons openly. If your predecessor did die in office, or if he was extremely popular and moved on to another congregation, you will have to be sensitive to their need to mourn his departure. If you are following an individual who had a long term as pastor, you may want to ask if the committee feels another long-term pastorate is feasible considering the tenure of your predecessor.
In what areas did you wish your former pastors had more expertise?
“We’ve had three preachers in a row in this church, and now we need a money man!” Listening to this response by a committee member a few years ago, I felt glad I had asked!
You have cushioned this question by making the subject plural, thus taking the onus off your predecessor, but you’ve still allowed them to express their opinions about unaddressed areas of need.
Two caveats should be issued: First, you are not talking about personality traits but ministerial skills. Second, ask them to speak only about firsthand experience. Rumors that Pastor So-and-so didn’t deal with poor Mr. Jones’s suicide very well may be nothing more than that—rumors, and are therefore counterproductive.
What formal and informal methods of support have you used in the past to help your pastor become a better minister?
The question may stop them cold! If they display signs of confusion, offer explanations based on your expectations of congregational support. Did they encourage (and offer to pay for) any continuing education? Are there formal structures to assist the pastor in preaching by providing disciplined feedback? Has the congregation developed methods to evaluate their own performance as Christian ministers?
Tell me about the governing board.
And I mean everything! How are they elected? How frequently? Does the board rotate membership on a regular basis? What is the background, business, and interest of each member? What kind of jobs do they hold? Are they employers or employees? (The answer makes a significant difference in how they treat their clergy!)
Who runs the stewardship, Christian education, youth, mission, and outreach programs? Who oversees building maintenance? Is the church board bound to any state laws in addition to congregational bylaws and denominational methods of procedure? If there is a staff in addition to the pastor, who is responsible for church-staff relations? How much authority does the board exercise in staff management? How frequently does the board meet? How long, on the average, do the meetings last?
The church building may be beautiful, the community ideal, the manse a mansion, but the quality of your working life will be determined largely by your relationship with the board. Discover as much as you can about its members and how they function before you consider accepting this call.
Has the pastor’s family traditionally taken an active role in this church?
In answering this question, committee members may reveal how they felt about the level of activity of previous pastors’ families. Therein lies the key to the criteria by which your family will be judged.
How is the pastor’s compensation package determined? How frequently is it reviewed? By whom? What factors are used in determining that package? Merit or cost-of-living increases? Social Security reimbursement? Equity in the parsonage or a cash equity allowance? Continuing education, book, and automobile allowances?
Presumably, you already know what salary the church is offering. What you are interested in is whether you will be a participant in your salary review a year after your call. You also need to sensitize the committee to the increasing financial burden placed on clergy by factors beyond their control such as Social Security increases (soon to be 13 percent) and the loss of equity by living in church-owned housing.
Far too often, humility (or embarrassment) prevents clergy from honestly discussing financial needs, but the laborer is worthy of his hire, and your compensation package must meet the needs of your family. Your interest in the process and participation in annual reviews must be stated at the outset.
How should your pastor spend his time? In the course of a week, how much time should be spent in prayer? Personal study? Sermon preparation? Administration? Individual and family counseling? Visiting? With the family?
At some point, get specific information about their expectations of your time. I remember asking a question about the rector’s personal time, and a vestryman responded, “Day off? Why, our rectors never take a day off!” I accepted the call to that church and found the man wasn’t kidding—they fully expected their rector to be available at a moment’s notice. It took two years before they became accustomed to my practice of leaving town a day and a half each week.
How many hours do they expect you to work in a week? If you expect to work forty, and they expect eighty, better to know it now! How are those hours to be used? When they are used up and work remains undone, what happens? If you work extra hours one week, will they allow you to take those hours for yourself and your family next week? Do they see prayer, study, and sermon preparation as part of your work week, or things to be done on top of forty hours of hospital and home visiting?
In your questioning, you must not sound judgmental—you are acquiring information. They may have thought of the pastor’s job only in the most general terms. These questions force them to state their expectations clearly both for themselves and the candidate.
What organizations in the congregation are the most active or successful?
This allows you to determine the congregational priorities. If the Ladies’ Bridge Club is thriving but the Young People’s Fellowship is limping along, you know where the interest and commitment is. Ask if any organizations have dissolved in the last two years. If so, why?
Beyond calling a pastor and its related concerns, what is the highest congregational priority for the next twelve months?
Whatever the responses (and there are bound to be more than one), they will form your expected agenda for the next year. You must determine if their interests align with your own. You may want to build a men’s program or start an emergency food cupboard, but they may want to panel the church lounge or pave the parking lot.
What goals have you established for church growth? What methods can be used to achieve those goals?
The question of growth is a census question. Where will the new people come from? If this community is like most others, the question will be how to attract and sustain the unchurched. Is the church ready for that?
Perhaps the most honest response I ever received to this question came from one committee member who said, “Getting more people is your job, and I don’t care how you do it. I just come here to worship.”
While undoubtedly many people feel this way, if that attitude is embraced by the congregation as a whole, the task before you is formidable.
What plans have you made for the expansion of staff or plant?
If they haven’t planned for expansion, they don’t intend to grow. The vision of their future ministry is bound by the limitations of the present moment. While this may not deter you from accepting the position, you must realize you have some hard work cut out for you, beginning with an expansion of their horizons.
How stable is this congregation financially?
With the recent economic uncertainties, few churches have been able to work toward future financial security. Ask them to speculate aloud about the future financial needs of the congregation.
What programs have you planned to implement in the next ten years?
Many churches feel any plans they may have had go out the window when a new pastor comes. On the other hand, some congregations may be anxious to implement changes the former pastor disallowed. The question allows them to state their dreams of the future. You, in turn, can give them an honest assessment of your interest in those particular programs with relatively little risk.
But How Do I Know?
The search for the perfect congregation is futile. No church can ever fully meet a minister’s needs, any more than one minister can fulfill all the expectations of a congregation. Even so, you need not accept every offer that comes along. How do you know when to pursue an interview to the next stage, or to accept the call if offered?
Accepting a call is at best a series of tradeoffs. Are you willing to live with this particular drawback in order to acquire that specific benefit?
Consequently, before you begin the process, take time to assess your professional needs and your family’s social and economic needs. What are the nonnegotiables? What are things you’d be willing to wait two years for? What are mere preferences?
Do you have skills as a teacher that you need to use? Are you particularly gifted in youth work? Do you hunger to share your spiritual journey with a group of fellow pilgrims? What family needs will shape your decision? Will your spouse expect or need to work? What stage have your children reached in their schooling? Will their gifts or needs require specialized instruction or guidance?
Don’t forget to list areas where you will require assistance. Do you find administrative work a burden and hope to have members of the congregation share the load? Do you depend on lay assistance in visitation? Do you need structured feedback to help you gauge your performance?
An honest assessment of needs will highlight specific areas your interview must address. If your needs assessment is carefully done, you’ll know what you require and what you’re willing to trade off.
The criteria you establish, however, may not be your final basis for deciding. I once interviewed with a church that presented me with a dozen reasons to say no. Some members of the search committee were guarded, others hostile. Several questions I asked received an answer I didn’t expect (or want). Accepting the call would have meant taking a cut in salary and moving my wife and children even farther from our already distant families. I was certain the pastor who accepted this call would be faced with a long list of difficulties.
But I accepted that call nonetheless, convinced that even though it seemed all wrong, it was definitely right.
The interview, stressful and upsetting as it may be, is the best forum for hammering out concerns, commitments, and priorities in an atmosphere of intense excitement and high expectation. Handled carefully and prayerfully, it can be a time of joyous discovery that leads to a long and fruitful relationship.
Copyright © 1985 Christianity Today
