Today's interview is with Jen Pollock Michel. Jen is a writer, speaker, and mother. She is a regular contributor to Her.meneutics. Her latest book is Teach Us to Want: Longing, Ambition and the Life of Faith. Today, we talk with Jen about desire, obedience, and cultivating holy longings in our children.
1) Teach Us to Want is a rather provocative title. As Christians we are not used to being told that wanting is good. But is it?
It's funny you mention the title. For a while, the working title was Found Wanting, and I liked that title for its ambiguity. It acknowledged what can be treacherous about sinners allowing themselves to want. In another sense, it granted simply what it means to be human. To be human is to want.
Obviously, we ended up with Teach Us to Want, which captures the premise of the book better—namely, that desire has a lot of potential for being good when it's taught. We don't need to abandon desire categorically. Rather, we need to learn what God desires and submit our desires to the spiritual process of "re-formation."
I've come to love the title of the book. It's the simplest prayer for engaging our desires in a faithful way. "Lord, teach me to want."
2) I remember growing up hearing a lot of messages bashing desire—they implied that what we love and like should not be important. Obedience is better. But you are saying this is an unbiblical dichotomy.
Yes, I'm absolutely pushing back on this idea that obedience has to be difficult and undesirable. The New Covenant actually reconciles desire and obedience. God's Law, written on our hearts, affects a new unity between our beliefs and behaviors and desires. What we get as a result isn't just obedience—but obedient desire.
One example of this in the New Testament is the "cheerful giver" in 2 Corinthians 9. Why does God love the cheerful giver? Shouldn't he just celebrate our financial gifts, no matter our attitude in giving them? Isn't the point our obedience? Not entirely! God wants us to want to give.
3) I think of C.S. Lewis famous picture of "mud pies" and Jonathan Edwards' focus on affections. Seems we need to recapture this in our theology.
I think it's pretty essential for spiritual formation. I have the curiosity that all people in ministry do: how are we formed into the image of Christ? That's a huge question, and I certainly don't have all the answers. But I do think desire needs to figure into the conversation. James K.A. Smith's book, Desiring the Kingdom, was critical for my understanding here. He insists that we can't approach spiritual formation as a cognitive exercise. In Smith's words, when we do this, the church "is pouring water on our head to put out a fire in our heart."
4) What are some ways you think pastors and church leaders can help Christians think through reordering their desires?
One simple thing to understand about desire, both holy and unholy, is this: desire is formed by habits.
One simple thing to understand about desire, both holy and unholy, is this: desire is formed by habits. That's a Classical understanding of vice and virtue (Aristotle said, "We are what we repeatedly do"), and it's also an idea supported by modern brain science. But Scripture, too, commends to us the importance of "practice." I even think of the verse, which ended up being critical for Augustine. Augustine was, of course, acutely aware of his unholy desires. Although he was intellectually convinced of Christianity for a while, he despaired of his conversion because of the power of those desires. The verse that ended up being so compelling for him was Romans 13:14: "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires." Suddenly, Augustine knew that while he was powerless to transform his desires, he could form new habits. That was hope for him.
In terms of our approach to spiritual formation, we have to commend new practices to people and create structures of accountability where those practices can be sustained. That's not legalism, as if we are depending on outward forms alone. It's an act of trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit to reform our desires through our habits.
5) What are some ways our parenting might change?
What a fantastic question! As the mother of five, I am very interested in how these ideas shape parenting. Most importantly, I think it can force us to examine our parenting objectives. Our job is bigger than helping our children form the right beliefs and behaviors. We have to seek to cultivate holy longings in our children. And that's a big responsibility, demanding we pay a lot of attention to what explicitly and implicitly forms the desires of our children. We have to examine the hidden curriculum in our neighborhoods and cities, our churches even. How are they being taught to want in those contexts?
It also means that we should commit ourselves, as a family, to the kinds of spiritual practices that form holy desires (i.e. regular Bible reading, service, prayer, church membership, etc.). Even though these spiritual routines can feel rote at times, we have to believe in the power of habit to act at the level of our desires.
Daniel Darling is vice-president of communications for the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. He is the author of several books, including his latest, Activist Faith.
