Former vice president Mike Pence appeared on The Russell Moore Show four years after the January 6, 2021, US Capitol rioters threatened not only his life but also the lives of his wife and daughter. He discussed former second lady Karen Pence’s frosty reception of President Donald Trump, the importance of praying for government leaders, and the potential for a third world war.
Illustration by Ronan LynamRussell Moore: We’re four years out from January 6, on which you and your family were in great jeopardy because the president at the time called a mob to the Capitol and didn’t call it off. Was it painful to see President Trump again [at former president Jimmy Carter’s funeral]?
Mike Pence: It was the first time we had been in the same place since we left the White House four years ago. We pray for the president often, as believers are admonished to do for all those in positions of authority.
January 6 was a tragic day. I’ll always believe that I did my duty and kept my oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and ceded the peaceful transfer of power that day. The next morning, before President Trump would denounce the rioters and say they would pay, he committed to a peaceful transfer.
About a week later, he asked for a meeting, and I readily accepted. We sat down after those tumultuous events, and we talked all the way through it. I sensed the president was genuinely saddened about what had happened that day.
The first thing he asked was about Karen and my daughter. He said, “Are they okay?” And I said, “They’re fine.” And he said, “I just found out they were with you the whole time.” And I said, “They wouldn’t leave, Mr. President.”
On January 6, I was determined to stay at my post and finish my work. But what a lot of people don’t know is that my wife and daughter had come to observe the proceedings for a short period of time. When we told them that their motorcade could take them back to the vice president’s residence, my wife refused. They were both there till four in the morning, until the gavel fell [to confirm the electoral votes].
I was with the president in the waning weeks of our administration. I looked at him as we were wrapping up a conversation about official duties and said, “I just want you to know I’m praying for you.” His shoulders sank, and he said, “Don’t bother.”
When we wrapped up the meeting, I walked out and stopped in the doorway. I said, “There’s probably two things that we’re never going to agree on. We’re probably never going to agree on what my duty was under the Constitution on January 6. And I’m never going to stop praying for you.”
He looked up at me and said, “That’s right, Mike. Don’t ever change.” We have prayed for him often in the months and years that have followed.
RM: There’s an internet meme going around of Mrs. Pence at Carter’s funeral. She did not seem very enthusiastic to see President Trump. Many of us can relate to having a spouse who feels things very deeply for the person they love.
MP: You’ll have to ask my wife about her posture, but we’ve been married 44 years… She loves her husband, and her husband respects her deeply.
RM: On January 6, did you ever consider saying, “There are some questions about these votes. I’m just going to turn them back to the states.” Did you ever consider not going in that day and leaving the certification of the vote to the president pro tempore in the Senate?
If you had, you might still be vice president or maybe even president right now. Was that a temptation that you had to fight?
MP: When I put my left hand on Ronald Reagan’s Bible in January 2017 and raised my right hand, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
It ends with a prayer: “So help me God.” That means it’s not only a promise that I made to you and to the American people, but it was a promise I made to Almighty God. As a student of American history, there is perhaps no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose which Electoral College votes to count. No vice president in American history has ever asserted that authority, nor should they.
The presidency belongs to the American people, and where disputes arise, they are to be resolved by the elected representatives of the American people. My duty that day was very clear to me, but it didn’t make it any less painful. President Trump was not only my president; he was my friend. He had been persuaded by some outside voices that I had authority that no vice president in history had ever asserted. Some vice presidents in the past recused themselves from those proceedings. Hubert Humphrey in 1969 did not preside over the count. He had just lost the election in 1968.
But as the father of a United States Marine and the father-in-law of a Navy lieutenant, one of the things I reflected on during the weeks leading up to January 6, 2021, was that my son and my son-in-law—and every member of the armed services and every law enforcement officer in the country—take the same oath. And when our boys get an assignment, they don’t get to say, “That doesn’t really work for me.”
RM: You have a son who’s a Marine. I have a son who’s an Airman. There are a lot of people who are worried right now when they look at Ukraine, Gaza, Israel, Hamas, Iran, Taiwan, China. Are we headed into World War III?
MP: Peace comes through strength. When I was running for president, some people said my support for Ukraine was going to lead us to World War III. I think a more careful study of the 20th century would prove the opposite is true. Weakness arouses evil. Because the West and the United States largely ignored the aggression of the authoritarian regime in Germany, we ultimately had to send American troops to fight and to win back a free Europe and to fight back in the Pacific during World War II.
One of the hopeful things about President Trump’s return to the White House and Republican majorities in the House and the Senate is that we’re going to make an increased investment in our national defense. We’re at about 3 percent of gross domestic product today. I strongly support moving us to 5 percent in a fairly short period of time. We can send no better message to our adversaries and those who could become our adversaries than by redoubling our commitment to be the arsenal of democracy.
I think President Trump understands and believes in peace through strength. The only asterisk to that is that some of the voices around him are advocating for a new American isolationism. They’re saying we should cut off all funding to Ukraine as they fight for their survival against an unprovoked Russian invasion. There are even voices that call for cutting off all aid to Israel.
I’m hopeful that my old running mate will return to that “peace through strength” strategy that resulted in four years where Russia never crossed a border, where we were able to unleash our military to take down the ISIS caliphate. We used force against Syria twice. And in a very real sense, we made it clear to our allies in the Asia-Pacific that we were with them and we’d stay with them as China’s provocations continued there.
RM: You’re not concerned about the belligerent rhetoric toward Canada, Denmark, Greenland, and the Panama Canal zone?
MP: I do think Jimmy Carter was wrong to turn over the Panama Canal. I think the fact that Chinese companies are operating multiple locks in the Panama Canal is antithetical to America’s interests. China is not our enemy today. We hope for better in the future. But if they ever become an adversary, it’ll be important for us to have a clear understanding with our allies in Panama about the vital importance of that waterway to our national security.
Mike Pence served as vice president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
Russell Moore is Christianity Today’s editor in chief and the director of the Public Theology Project.
This article appeared in the May/June 2025 issue of Christianity Today as "Guest Appearances".
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