Church conversations about masculinity are rooted in biblical truth but can sound different among Black Christians who have to contend with false ideological and religious movements, such as the Nation of Islam.
The Just Life’s Benjamin Watson sat down with pastor Eric Mason, who leads Epiphany Fellowship Church in Philadelphia, to talk about how the church can better engage Black men and give them tools to chart their own course. Mason believes the church has lost the manhood talk and must think creatively about ministering to men. Watson and Mason also discuss biblical justice and how the Chrisitan should relate with the government during times of disagreement.
Here are edited excerpts from their conversation.
We’ve lost the manhood talk the same way we’ve lost the justice talk. Because if you think about it, what would the Evil One want most to take out of our conversations from a biblical perspective? He wanted to take our manhood, obviously, because of the leadership, because of the order, because of all the sorts of things we see in Genesis, and because of all the ills that have a tie directly to manhood (or lack thereof). But he’d also want to come in and frustrate the justice talk because it keeps people in pain and hurt and without restoration.
I do believe what you said in relation to it. I’m going to give you the perfect example. The Nation of Islam is falling apart. Nobody knows that. Mosque No. 12, which Elijah Muhammad’s son started in Philly, and all the mosques, they’re now meeting in, like, a house, like a small little row house with barely any people in it.
But what keeps them relevant is that [Louis] Farrakhan has mastered the ability to talk to men about their key buttons. One of the things that we’re missing is the reason Black men are attracted to these different groups is because they talk about what’s wrong with the country, what’s wrong with situations.
They tell the whole story.
They’re saying we have to be responsible, and they speak truth to power. I believe that we have to have a comprehensive message that includes those things within it, in relation to how we apply the gospel to the area of justice. Because that is an issue that men want to know about. [They’re asking,] What can I do to be a change agent?
There’s another thing I see with men. I remember I was talking about how to manage money, and how it took years for me to get my wife and me out of debt, pay off our student loans, credit cards, and all of that. I said I ended up having to get an accountant, a financial planner, and started an LLC. I didn’t realize how much the men were listening. They were like, “Hey, Pastor, talk to us more about that.” So I related it and said, “I had to begin to have a financial vision for my home. And I believe God is going to hold me responsible for that and [for] building generational wealth for my kids, even as a pastor.”
Now, we have financial seminars with hundreds of people there. And dudes are in there connecting that. They’re saying, Why didn’t anybody tell me this? Particularly in our community, because we’re not taught from childhood about money in a particular way.
Let’s talk about politics for a little bit from a justice perspective. Do you think the church has the primary role in bringing about and correcting injustice, or is it the government? Or is it a combination of both? Some people would say the government has created policies over time—we can name a litany of them—that have been unjust policies, and we see the ramifications of those. The government needs to be the one to fix those things.
Then others would say, I can’t trust the government for anything and it’s the church that has to lead when it comes to racial injustice, but also poverty, education. How do you navigate the balance? Whose responsibility is it?
I want to come back to that because I want to address a bigger issue. In the Western world, we have a very entitled way that we look at the relationship between the church and government that wasn’t afforded the people of God in history.
I just haven’t had the time to do it, but I wanted to do a biblical theology of the relationship of the people of God throughout Scripture and throughout history with government. I want to ask the Bible questions. Anywhere in Scripture, did it make it the people of God’s responsibility to fix government? I’m just asking the Bible a question.
Now, what do I see in the Bible? I do see that the people of God were always a prophetic voice to government. I always saw that. Now, you got to understand, they were under absolute monarchies. We’re in a democratic republic. I would say we’re in new orders when it comes to the relationship.
When you think about world history, yes.
Yes, until the Edict of Milan, Christianity was illegal. So even our relationship with government before then was different until the Edict of Milan.
We’re some pretty entitled, privileged Christians.
So you understand what I’m saying? So in us approaching the subject … I have to say, “No, no, let’s back up. What does the Bible teach our relationship with government is in the New Testament?”
It’s two things. I’m going to sound like a sellout, but it’s the Bible. Fundamentally, it’s going to speak out against injustice, pray for government, and support where we can biblically.
Titus chapter 3 verse 1 says, “Remind them to submit to rulers and authorities, to obey, [and] be ready for every good work” (CSB). So we’re not talking about obeying carte blanche. We’re talking about obeying as long as God’s cool with what you’re being obedient to.
As long as they’re not telling you to do something totally incongruent to the gospel.
Absolutely. This is what it says though: “To be ready for every good work.” That means to serve government. Then it says, “To slander no one, to avoid fighting, and to be kind, always showing gentleness to all people” (v. 2). Why? Because verse 3 is going to tell you: you were lost. So don’t slander government officials. This is what the scriptures are saying.
