On February 27, the Pakistani government declared open war on Afghanistan’s Taliban government. Massive air strikes have killed hundreds in the days since. To understand the political and religious components of the conflict, The Bulletin sat down with human rights lawyer and former diplomat Knox Thames. Here are edited excerpts from their conversation in episode 260.

How did this war between Pakistan and Afghanistan begin?

It’s deeply ironic for the Pakistanis to complain about terrorists coming out of Afghanistan, because while the US was there, Pakistanis were some of the biggest supporters for the Taliban and other extremists operating against what we were trying to establish—a democratic government that respected women and minority rights. Pakistan was the first country to celebrate the fall of the Afghan government and the return of the Taliban. It’s also tragic because these are two impoverished countries with many challenges. The fact that they’re trading bombs and not goods and services just means that the average Pakistani, the average Afghani, will continue to suffer.

Since the Taliban government has no international relations, Afghanistan has been pretty isolated, with Pakistan being its one outlet to the wider world. The Durand Line, where fighting has recently broken out, is a colonial border that was arbitrarily laid down amidst people groups that were once whole. There’s a historical fight over where the real border between these two countries is, and these skirmishes have been steadily escalating until now. 

Pakistan has nuclear weapons. They have a modern air force. They went toe to toe with India not too long ago, so there would be no competition, military to military. But as we learned the hard way, the Taliban and these terrorist groups that operate in Afghanistan don’t play by the same rules. It would be very easy for them to infiltrate Pakistan to set off explosions and suicide bombs in sensitive government locations. That could be a terrifying next phase of this conflict if cooler heads don’t prevail. 

Ramadan could be a tool to help deescalate. This is the most holy time of the year for Muslims, a faith that is shared on both sides of the border. There are Islamic leaders who are against this extreme violence, who promote peace. Will they be given a platform? Will they be allowed to preach a return to introspection and prayer? We hope for that rather than an escalation to broader conflict with missiles flying in every direction.

Is this conflict related to what we’re seeing right now in Iran, or is it entirely separate?

What’s playing out between Pakistan and Afghanistan is its own universe of history, overlapping ethnicities, and lines drawn by the British when they were the colonial power. Two common threads are, first, a radical terrorist community that operates out of all three countries and is willing to use extreme violence against those who think, pray, or believe differently than they do. And second, the government’s willingness to cozy up to some of those factions and use them as a way to project power in other countries like Pakistan does in India, like Afghanistan has done against the United States. That’s the through line.

The Taliban sees the world through a religious lens. Taliban means “a return to Islamic education.” That’s the framework, a very narrow application of sharia law. It’s how they decide to govern domestically and how they engage internationally.

Pakistan’s not too different. They are more secular, but there is a strong strain of Islamic extremism interwoven into government and laws that also commands how Pakistan engages at home and abroad. They’re two sides of the same coin, playing the same game with these nonstate actors, and both are paying a high price. 

You mention Ramadan. What is the religious landscape of Pakistan?

Pakistan is an incredibly diverse country of 250 million people. It’s overwhelmingly Islamic, but that belies a much greater diversity that’s intra-Islamic, majority Sunni, that breaks into different denominations or sects.

There’s a very large Shia Muslim community as well as a variety of heterodox groups like the Ahmadi community that view themselves as Islamic, but the Islamic establishment doesn’t. In addition, you have a Christian community, a Sikh community, and a Hindu community with an overlay of different ethnicities. Issues of religious persecution are a steady narrative in the daily lived experience of religious minorities in that country. 

You’ve written about a man named Shahbaz Bhatti. Why is he someone Christians should know?

Shahbaz Bhatti was a hero of the Christian faith and a Pakistani patriot. He was a friend of mine, and 15 years ago this month, he was killed by the Pakistani Taliban for speaking out against the country’s onerous blasphemy law. He was willing to give it all for the cause of religious freedom. He was courageous to speak up for his own persecuted Christian community, but also for persecuted Hindus, Sikhs, and others. 

Pakistan has the worst blasphemy law in the world. It empowers individuals to make a claim, a charge of blasphemy, which carries the death penalty. Once the charge is made by an individual, the police are then required to arrest the accused. That arrest begins a legal process that can take years. Right now, there are at least 400 people who are currently in detention under charges of blasphemy. There are actually more Muslims than non-Muslims in detention, because this law has no guide rails. 

Business competitors will levy accusations of blasphemy so that a competitor is in jail or on trial for his life. They can take your property, your home, your business. But it’s the minorities, the Christians, the Hindus, who are even more vulnerable because they don’t have the larger community to fall back on.

When there’s an allegation of blasphemy, usually a mob is riled up. Homes are burned down, churches are destroyed, the victim is arrested, and those who are leading the mob attacks are not. According to my research, Pakistan has more people detained for the crime of blasphemy than all other countries combined times three. It’s a cancer that’s eating away at the heart of that country. Because of the extreme actions terrorists will take to defend it, like murdering Bhatti and other government leaders, politicians are literally scared to death to touch it.

Pakistan’s parliament within this illiberal democracy does reserve seats for religious minorities, but cabinet-level positions are very rare. Bhatti had enough political savvy to make himself relevant to the ruling political party of the day. He brought tens of thousands of people into the streets to protest for equal rights, for no discrimination based on religion or background. President Zardari and his wife noticed this and started to invite him to ally with their political program and, eventually, brought him into government. It was an impressive political feat. 

Bhatti used that position to advocate for religious freedom, to advocate against the blasphemy law, to advocate against his own government’s policies from within the government at the cabinet level.

I remember driving through one of the nicest neighborhoods in Islamabad, and in the middle of it, along a drainage ditch, was a Christian village. That was the only land that they could afford to buy, living in tin shacks. Many Christians were originally Dalits during the colonial period and converted to Christianity, so there is racial discrimination as well as religious. 

While Bhatti was in government, he helped pass a law requiring that 5 percent of all government jobs be set aside for minorities. Because of these religious and ethnic discriminatory tendencies, minorities were left otherwise to sweep streets and clean sewers. 

Because of that advocacy, there are more Christians, more Hindus getting professional jobs so they can better themselves and their families. Pakistan’s a hard place for anybody, but particularly for Christians and other minorities. The discrimination, the violence, and the legal environment are just so oppressive. When Bhatti was killed 15 years ago, it was a great loss for the country. It was a great loss to the world of religious freedom advocacy. 

The US has worked in Nigeria to assist Christians who are under oppression. Do you see a similar response in Pakistan?

The first Trump administration, which I worked under, named Pakistan as a country of particular concern (CPC), the same designation that Mr. Trump recently announced for Nigeria. This was the first administration to ever do that. It was great and long overdue. I traveled to Islamabad to negotiate with the Pakistanis about how to get off that list of concerning countries. Sadly, the Biden administration didn’t pursue this issue in Pakistan or religious freedom in general.

What’s troubling about the second Trump administration is that when Secretary of State Marco Rubio met with Pakistani officials, he only wanted to talk about a rare earth minerals deal. No mention of persecution. There’s been no action toward the other 12 CPC countries that need to be redesignated either—China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Burma, and others. These are missed opportunities to leverage US influence and this administration to get Pakistan to make these reforms. Unfortunately, I’m not seeing any desire to pick that up anytime soon. 

What concerns the Pakistani Christian diaspora as they look at what’s playing out in their country?

Many Pakistani Christians have chosen to flee to either Thailand or Sri Lanka, two places that they can go without a visa. But once they get there, they get stranded. There are large Pakistani Christian communities in both countries that are living on the margins of society, praying for the day that they could get resettled to Canada, to the United States, to Europe. 

They’re incredibly vulnerable. A whole generation of children are missing out on school opportunities, and they were already vulnerable in Pakistan. There’s not the threat of terrorists wanting to kill them, but there are a host of other concerns about trafficking and child exploitation that run rampant there.

When I meet with the Pakistani diaspora here in the States, that’s what they’re concerned about. They want the US to open up the doors again, to allow the resettlement of these persecuted minorities, even to assist in facilitating their transit to Canada. 

The church in Pakistan is one of the most beleaguered yet faithful I’ve ever seen, because of the environment they must navigate every day. When we talk about saving persecuted Christians, we need to be mindful of them.

When we talk about religious persecution, we of course remember our own, but we also must talk about it holistically. We as Christians stand up for anyone who’s being persecuted, Christian or not. We do this as a witness and testimony of God’s love but also because it helps the Christian minorities in these tough environments show that Christians care about everyone. We don’t segregate others or set them aside. 

In Afghanistan, the tiny church that exists operates underground. I hear rumors that they’re still there, but it’s one of the worst places in the world to be a convert because if that becomes known, it’s hard to get out. It’s instant death. We need to pray for peace in both countries because many innocent people are in harm’s way right now.