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And I never felt like I had to. I'm a good follower. Like as much as I am a good leader, I'm a good follower. And when there's a good leader in front of me, I have no problem following that leader and doing everything I can to support that leader. And so I think some of that was there wasn't this fear from each other.

We were never afraid of each other. We were never worried about what each other was doing. We were able to just kind of do our thing and, you know, we still meet, we still talk, I still share with you what we're doing in the youth ministry department, but there was never this underlying thing happening or things happening behind the scene. No drama behind the scenes. I mean, it was. I think it just really worked. It was just a good team.

KV: Yeah. You started that by talking about there, there are a lot of lead pastors who are worried that the guy behind him is going to push them out. And then a lot of youth pastors or young ministers when whatever their capacity is, who feel like the pastor is putting this ceiling on me. And so it's like each one of them has, has a feeling of being threatened by the other. The older guy, who's not willing to learn new ways. The younger guy, who's not willing to maybe honor the seniority or maybe is trying to move ahead in some new things and is being blocked for reasons that they can't really understand.

I always felt that it was my job to, to figure out how to say yes to every crazy idea that we could figure out how to say yes to. I was always grateful that there was somebody who was coming up with creative ideas. Cause I, I have never felt creative in my life. I'm not the guy. I mean, you know, I'm not the guy who comes up with the new way to paint the sanctuary, the new way to make this look good, the great new event is going to be whatever.

You always came up with them. And I was always grateful to hear the new ideas. I never felt like I had to be owning it. It didn't have to be my idea. I put it this way to people when I've talked to them, I said, "It's unspoken between us, but I think we've always had the idea. Best idea wins."

GG: Yeah.

KV: Right. It's not about that it's my idea or your idea. It's best idea wins.